SubjectProphet Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Imperial look: Ulfric approached the thron and challenged the High King. It was accepted, and Ulfric shouted, almost ripping him apart. The shout killed the High King. Stormcloak and actual events: Ulfric challenged the High King, and used a shout to disarm Toryg. Ulfric actually killed him with his axe, no shout or special magic. If a leader can't defend himself, how can he defend his people or his land? Toryg was slain by a Jarl, which proves he was not fit at all for the throne. In doing so, Ulfric had a valid claim to the throne, and could call the moot even though wanted for treason by the Empire. Toryg also only wanted to impress the High Queen, Elisif. Why try to impress when you lead a land? It made no sense. Ulfric wanted Skyrim to be free from the AD. He wanted the slavery to end. So those are three simple reasons. Ulfric killed Toryg, which proves he was unfit for the crown, and didn't deserve to be High King. A nord king should be powerful, and able to survive a battle. If he fell to a lesser, he can't survive every battle he had to face. Toryg's death only proved that he was unfit for the throne, and Ulfric was the one who made that point. He was right to kill Toryg, 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robanybody2000 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Beeing a ruller is not only about who is stronger, is also about who is wiser or who provides for the people ruled. A physicaly strong leader is nothing if his armies and folowers dye from starvation (not the case but still...). Ulfric would make a reasonable leader if not for the obsession of killing every imperial(meaning legion soldier) and AD soldier in Skyrim. IF he would have turned for a treaty with Hammerfell he would have had my full support. I'm not saying he didn't had the right to kill high king Toryg, seeing how Toryg betrayed Ulfric, i'm saying that Ulfric has minimum to none social or economics skill. He is a warrior and he is good at leading armies and that's abbout it. He shoul have thought if the WHOLE Empire lost the war against the Dominion, what chances does less than half of Skyrim has?. Before saying that the exact chances as Hammerfell think that the redguards were all united in fighting the Thalmor. So he had the right but that does not make him a good leader. Having Nords killing other Nords does not make Skyrim stronger, but reduces population and resources, turning the region into an easy pick for the AD. The best approach would have been alliance with Hammerfell FOLLOWED by civil war (only if necesary) and then war against the AD. Unfortunately Ulfric's ego was larger than his brain. Oh...and using shouts to win a battle...it's not mentioned anywere if it'a allowed to use them or not so no bad there. It's not like Ulfric and Toryg sat down and made a coupple of rules for the duel like..."Ok, we duel but.. NO magick, NO shouting and NO pushing !" Edited May 16, 2012 by robanybody2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyro Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Yes, I agree with this. Ulfric would make a strong leader, but I still wouldn't like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettM Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Oh...and using shouts to win a battle...it's not mentioned anywere if it'a allowed to use them or not so no bad there.But it IS mentioned and there IS a bad there. This issue is the whole point of the Way of the Voice. Use of Shouts in battle was standard practice for the Nords until Jurgen Windcaller came along and got all the Tongues of that time to agree that the Voice would never again be used for combat. Ulfric is trying to claim tradition as his justification, but that tradition was rejected thousands of years before. Only a dragonborn is considered exempt from the rules, and Ulfric is no dragonborn. Ulfric knows this quite well, since he studied to become a Graybeard for many years until the Great War came along and he left High Hrothgar. If you join the Stormcloaks before doing "Dragon Rising", he will explain all this to you himself after you hear the summons of the Graybeards. It's quite an enlightening conversation, and one of the few where his remarks seem totally sincere rather than sounding like political spin control. While I side with the Stormcloaks on every playthrough, I always keep a close eye on Ulfric and resist the effort he makes to use me to bolster his image during his final speech in Solitude. The dragonborn is a possible check on Ulfric's desire for power, and I think he knows it. Not only does the dragonborn have the power to out-Shout Ulfric, he is a popular figure in his own right, and if he ever speaks against Ulfric, Nords will listen. If Ulfric really is the monster that some claim he is, be prepared for an attempted backstab. (Of course, to be fair, Ulfric may be wondering if the dragonborn is going to backstab him. If Ulfric is familiar with The Arcturian Heresy, he has some cause to worry that you're going to pull a Tiber Septim on him to get the throne for yourself.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubjectProphet Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 Beeing a ruller is not only about who is stronger, is also about who is wiser or who provides for the people ruled. A physicaly strong leader is nothing if his armies and folowers dye from starvation (not the case but still...). Ulfric would make a reasonable leader if not for the obsession of killing every imperial(meaning legion soldier) and AD soldier in Skyrim. IF he would have turned for a treaty with Hammerfell he would have had my full support. I'm not saying he didn't had the right to kill high king Toryg, seeing how Toryg betrayed Ulfric, i'm saying that Ulfric has minimum to none social or economics skill. He is a warrior and he is good at leading armies and that's abbout it. He shoul have thought if the WHOLE Empire lost the war against the Dominion, what chances does less than half of Skyrim has?. Before saying that the exact chances as Hammerfell think that the redguards were all united in fighting the Thalmor. So he had the right but that does not make him a good leader. Having Nords killing other Nords does not make Skyrim stronger, but reduces population and resources, turning the region into an easy pick for the AD. The best approach would have been alliance with Hammerfell FOLLOWED by civil war (only if necesary) and then war against the AD. Unfortunately Ulfric's ego was larger than his brain. Oh...and using shouts to win a battle...it's not mentioned anywere if it'a allowed to use them or not so no bad there. It's not like Ulfric and Toryg sat down and made a coupple of rules for the duel like..."Ok, we duel but.. NO magick, NO shouting and NO pushing !" Nord tradition is through strength in combat, so yes, in Skyrim, being a ruler matters off of who is stronger. Ulfric would need control of Skyrim to sign a treaty with the Resistance, which no doubt he would as High King. Ulfric is not a good man, but his cause is great. The Thalmor run the Empire, but the Nords and Redguards refuse to give in to it. If the Empire wanted to attack the AD again, who's to say they won't loose again? I certainly would NOT take that chance. The Nord tradition is through the power they use, which is strength and the Thu'um. Ulfric had a right to shout. If Toryg could use the Thu'um, I have no doubt he would've shouted. Would they count it as murder of Ulfric is Toryg used a shout on him? No. They just care because Toryg was High King and Elisif made a big deal about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robanybody2000 Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Agreed on the shout part. I think Toryg would have used the Thu'um if he knew it. Should have said "some" nords and the redguards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiegril Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 @SubjectProphet: you make the first case for Ulfric that seems even slightly reasonable to me. Having said that.... I am completely mesmerized by Ulfric's voice, so deep, hypnotic.... Almost to the point that I would do something crazy...... like side with the Stormcloaks! I put a sword through him every time. Skyrim belongs to the Nords, bah! Ulfric's a bigot and a powermonger willing to manipulate the prejudices of fellow nords and sacrifice the innocent of other races as convenient targets while looking only for personal gain. Just like a schoolyard bully with a bigger playground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiegril Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Agreed on the shout part. I think Toryg would have used the Thu'um if he knew it. Should have said "some" nords and the redguards. But Ulfric knew Torygg didn't know it. Using the voice on someone without it is like bringing an AK to an arm wrestling match. Where's the honor in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) But Ulfric knew Torygg didn't know it. Using the voice on someone without it is like bringing an AK to an arm wrestling match. Where's the honor in that? This is a red herring. Do you play the Dragonborn? Have you learned Unrelenting Force? How many Dragonborn are in Skyrim? Do you use Unrelenting Force or any other shout on enemies? If they're not Dragonborn or schooled in the ways of shouts, where's the honor in using a shout against them...or anytime? Unless all you care to activate is Kyne's Peace. Any warrior...any general...any king...that will not use the weapons at his disposal to win, isn't fit to lead...on any level. Edited May 17, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Leadership based on physical prowess is an open invitation to tyranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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