Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[landy8]

Highrock is a place of many nation-states constantly backs-tabbing each-other, you may be able to convince a handful but that would only ever just make the other ones your enemy. The only real way to get them unified is through force.

 

As far as I remember Daggerfall, there are two major states in High Rock - Daggerfall and Wayrest. So you have to convince only these two, others will follow.

 

Nords allying with Dunmer?

 

BLASPHEMY, it would be a reasonable assumption if the dunmer still had the heart of Lorkhan to bribe the Nords with, but as it stands now there's no way the Stormloacks would ask for Dumer help.

 

That returns us to the long discussion about Stormcloaks' claims, Stormcloaks' real claims (that Dunmer-teasing thugs in Windhelm are not even Stormcloaks), Ulfic's claims, Ulfric's real claims, etc. etc. One of my Dragonborns was a Dunmer, and she became a Stormblade nevertheless.

 

And look what happened immediately afterwards, the alliances broke down and we nearly annihilated each other during the cold war.

 

Yet it didn't help Adolf, or Wehrmacht, or nazi.

I don't think alliance everyone-not-AD will last long, but I think it will last long enough to throw the corpses of Thalmor from the walls of Alinor.

[sajuukkhar9000]

As far as I remember Daggerfall, there are two major states in High Rock - Daggerfall and Wayrest. So you have to convince only these two, others will follow.

As if it were that easy, the rest will not just fall in line because you were to convince the greater two.

 

That returns us to the long discussion about Stormcloaks' claims, Stormcloaks' real claims (that Dunmer-teasing thugs in Windhelm are not even Stormcloaks), Ulfic's claims, Ulfric's real claims, etc. etc. One of my Dragonborns was a Dunmer, and she became a Stormblade nevertheless.

That is entirely a gameplay element as to not exclude certain races from content.

 

In lore my Khajiit character should not be allowed inside the cities, in the game however I can walk in freely. What happens in game =/= what happens in lore.

 

Furthermore you could become a Stormcloak because you were Dragonborn, if all the Dunmer were Dragonborn you would have a point, but they are not.

 

Yet it didn't help Adolf, or Wehrmacht, or nazi.

I don't think alliance everyone-not-AD will last long, but I think it will last long enough to throw the corpses of Thalmor from the walls of Alinor.

And then what? the nations of the world go back to a pre-first era state were everyone is trying to kill everyone, the entirety of Tamriel turns into a bloody free for all, not much better.

Edited May 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[landy8]

As if it were that easy, the rest will not just fall in line because you were to convince the greater two.

 

The rest will matter little.

 

Furthermore you could become a Stormcloak because you were Dragonborn, if all the Dunmer were Dragonborn you would have a point, but they are not.

 

When Ulfric accepts you, he doesn't now you're Dragonborn. He even asks about your motives (if you're not a Nord). The only case he realizes you are Dragonborn is that High Hrothgar peace conference.

 

BTW, that conference is a good example of the power of Dovakiin's su'um (speechcraft).

 

And then what? the nations of the world go back to a pre-first era state were everyone is trying to kill everyone, the entirety of Tamriel turns into a bloody free for all, not much better.

 

And? Let Thalmor rule all of Tamriel? They will prevent this "everyone is trying to kill everyone" state.

 

BTW, you know, you remind me of one of my old friends. You're not him, of course (he knows English even worse than me), but just in case... Doesn't your real name begin with "A"?

I love you guy! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sajuukkhar9000]

The rest will matter little.

If you want a force that is trying to stab itself in the back at every turn as they normally are sure.

When Ulfric accepts you, he doesn't now you're Dragonborn. He even asks about your motives (if you're not a Nord). The only case he realizes you are Dragonborn is that High Hrothgar peace conference.

 

BTW, that conference is a good example of the power of Dovakiin's su'um (speechcraft).

The game is designed around the assumption that you at least got to the point were the Greybeards called for you before you go out and start doing other things. Ulfric at least thinks you might be Dragon.

 

Na, that is just a good example of Bethesda's terribly lazy writing, and characters that bend over backwards for any of the main characters. It was the same in Oblivion and Morrowind.

And? Let Thalmor rule all of Tamriel? They will prevent this "everyone is trying to kill everyone" state.

they actually might depending on how long they could hold their organization together. Most likely they will just unmake Mundus by killing Talos who is Lorkhan causing all mortals to revert back to their spirit forms at which point the now freed Akatosh who is Lorkhan would just remake the mortal realm again.

BTW, you know, you remind me of one of my old friends. You're not him, of course (he knows English even worse than me), but just in case... Doesn't your real name begin with "A"?

I love you guy! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

No my name begin with the letter on the exact opposite end of the alphabet.

Edited May 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[landy8]

If you want a force that is trying to stab itself in the back at every turn as they normally are sure.

 

The brave mages will march to AD's territory, backstabbing slime will remain in High Rock backstabbing each other.

 

The game is designed around the assumption that you at least got to the point were the Greybeards called for you before you go out and start doing other things. Ulfric at least thinks you might be Dragon.

 

No. There's no line in Ulfric's dialogue (or Galmar's, or even Jorleif's) indicating him to suspect that you are Dragonborn. And Stormcloak guards at the Palace of the Kings' doors mutter that "maybe I'm the Dragonborn..." nonsense.

 

Na, that is just a good example of Bethesda's terribly lazy writing, and characters that bend over backwards for any of the main characters. It was the same in Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

That's exactly the reason so send Dragonborn to negotiate with the Hist. Being player's avatar he can convince anyone! Why not to use that advantage?

Like Martin did in the end of Oblivion's main line. I think he finally realized (or, at least, suspected) who your character really was.

 

they actually might depending on how long they could hold their organization together. Most likely they will just unmake Mundus by killing Talos who is Lorkhan causing all mortals to revert back to their spirit forms at which point the now freed Akatosh who is Lorkhan would just remake the mortal realm again.

 

Then maybe it would be better to spare Alduin?

 

No my name begin with the letter on the exact opposite end of the alphabet.

 

Thought so. Nevertheless, you remind me of that old friend very much. We used to have disputes that lasted for hours. Good old times!

 

In terms of this discussion it means you'll never ruin my sweet dream of Grand Anti-Thalmor Alliance with Dovakiin flying over its front lines on Odahviing's back! :biggrin:

Edited May 29, 2012 by landy8

[BrettM]

As far as racism goes, you can't point the finger at the Nord thugs while ignoring everyone else. Like the Dunmer gal the thugs are harassing when you arrive at Windhelm, who later has some nasty things to say about Argonians being lazy. Or the Argonian on the docks who told my Dunmer character that "my kind" are not welcome there. Or Viola, who is an Imperial, not a Nord, but has just as much anti-Dunmer feeling as any Stormcloak. Or the Dunmer who wrote Dunmer of Skyrim, a screed promoting the racial superiority of the Dark Elves.

 

As for the Khajiit, we know that the caravans are denied access to the cities -- all cities, not just Windhelm -- but we don't know that this prohibition applies to non-caravan Khajiit. There seem to be few around who aren't part of some bandit group, aside from our own Khajiit characters, so we don't have a fair test. J'zhargo must have passed through Winterhold, though, to get to the College.

 

The caravan ban seems more pragmatic than racist. One of the caravan leaders spends a lot of time complaining that the Nords think they are all thieves and skooma dealers, then turns around and reveals that she is in Skyrim because her group got into trouble with the law in several other provinces and they were on the run until Ri'saad took them in. In point of fact, the caravans pretty much ARE all thieves and skooma dealers, and all of them ultimately work for ringleader Ri'saad, with his TG connections. Should the jarls really want Khajiit like these opening up shops inside of their towns? Should the jarls be more concerned with not appearing racist than with the actual welfare of their people? Branding a jarl racist for keeping out the caravans is like branding a mayor anti-Italian for keeping out the mafia.

[SubjectProphet]

As far as racism goes, you can't point the finger at the Nord thugs while ignoring everyone else. Like the Dunmer gal the thugs are harassing when you arrive at Windhelm, who later has some nasty things to say about Argonians being lazy. Or the Argonian on the docks who told my Dunmer character that "my kind" are not welcome there. Or Viola, who is an Imperial, not a Nord, but has just as much anti-Dunmer feeling as any Stormcloak. Or the Dunmer who wrote Dunmer of Skyrim, a screed promoting the racial superiority of the Dark Elves.

 

As for the Khajiit, we know that the caravans are denied access to the cities -- all cities, not just Windhelm -- but we don't know that this prohibition applies to non-caravan Khajiit. There seem to be few around who aren't part of some bandit group, aside from our own Khajiit characters, so we don't have a fair test. J'zhargo must have passed through Winterhold, though, to get to the College.

 

The caravan ban seems more pragmatic than racist. One of the caravan leaders spends a lot of time complaining that the Nords think they are all thieves and skooma dealers, then turns around and reveals that she is in Skyrim because her group got into trouble with the law in several other provinces and they were on the run until Ri'saad took them in. In point of fact, the caravans pretty much ARE all thieves and skooma dealers, and all of them ultimately work for ringleader Ri'saad, with his TG connections. Should the jarls really want Khajiit like these opening up shops inside of their towns? Should the jarls be more concerned with not appearing racist than with the actual welfare of their people? Branding a jarl racist for keeping out the caravans is like branding a mayor anti-Italian for keeping out the mafia.

 

 

Dunmer were enslaved by the Argonians through trade. And they still are.

[CaptainRC]

As far as racism goes, you can't point the finger at the Nord thugs while ignoring everyone else. Like the Dunmer gal the thugs are harassing when you arrive at Windhelm, who later has some nasty things to say about Argonians being lazy. Or the Argonian on the docks who told my Dunmer character that "my kind" are not welcome there. Or Viola, who is an Imperial, not a Nord, but has just as much anti-Dunmer feeling as any Stormcloak. Or the Dunmer who wrote Dunmer of Skyrim, a screed promoting the racial superiority of the Dark Elves.

 

As for the Khajiit, we know that the caravans are denied access to the cities -- all cities, not just Windhelm -- but we don't know that this prohibition applies to non-caravan Khajiit. There seem to be few around who aren't part of some bandit group, aside from our own Khajiit characters, so we don't have a fair test. J'zhargo must have passed through Winterhold, though, to get to the College.

 

The caravan ban seems more pragmatic than racist. One of the caravan leaders spends a lot of time complaining that the Nords think they are all thieves and skooma dealers, then turns around and reveals that she is in Skyrim because her group got into trouble with the law in several other provinces and they were on the run until Ri'saad took them in. In point of fact, the caravans pretty much ARE all thieves and skooma dealers, and all of them ultimately work for ringleader Ri'saad, with his TG connections. Should the jarls really want Khajiit like these opening up shops inside of their towns? Should the jarls be more concerned with not appearing racist than with the actual welfare of their people? Branding a jarl racist for keeping out the caravans is like branding a mayor anti-Italian for keeping out the mafia.

 

 

Dunmer were enslaved by the Argonians through trade. And they still are.

 

Isn't it the other way around? I thought the Argonians has been enslaved by the Dunmer.

[robanybody2000]

As far as racism goes, you can't point the finger at the Nord thugs while ignoring everyone else. Like the Dunmer gal the thugs are harassing when you arrive at Windhelm, who later has some nasty things to say about Argonians being lazy. Or the Argonian on the docks who told my Dunmer character that "my kind" are not welcome there. Or Viola, who is an Imperial, not a Nord, but has just as much anti-Dunmer feeling as any Stormcloak. Or the Dunmer who wrote Dunmer of Skyrim, a screed promoting the racial superiority of the Dark Elves.

 

As for the Khajiit, we know that the caravans are denied access to the cities -- all cities, not just Windhelm -- but we don't know that this prohibition applies to non-caravan Khajiit. There seem to be few around who aren't part of some bandit group, aside from our own Khajiit characters, so we don't have a fair test. J'zhargo must have passed through Winterhold, though, to get to the College.

 

The caravan ban seems more pragmatic than racist. One of the caravan leaders spends a lot of time complaining that the Nords think they are all thieves and skooma dealers, then turns around and reveals that she is in Skyrim because her group got into trouble with the law in several other provinces and they were on the run until Ri'saad took them in. In point of fact, the caravans pretty much ARE all thieves and skooma dealers, and all of them ultimately work for ringleader Ri'saad, with his TG connections. Should the jarls really want Khajiit like these opening up shops inside of their towns? Should the jarls be more concerned with not appearing racist than with the actual welfare of their people? Branding a jarl racist for keeping out the caravans is like branding a mayor anti-Italian for keeping out the mafia.

 

 

Dunmer were enslaved by the Argonians through trade. And they still are.

 

Isn't it the other way around? I thought the Argonians has been enslaved by the Dunmer.

 

It was both ways. Morrowind and The Black Marsh were always fighting each other. Most recent Black Marsh invaded the remains of Morrowind after the eruption of Vvardenfell. Maybe that is why Dunmers are pi$$ed at Argonians.

[SubjectProphet]

Good point @above. Black Marsh began the slave trade but the Dunmer fought back creating an even bigger slave trade. But nevermind that, the main topic needs to be discussed. Discuss this one off to the side.