Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[Kraeten]

1. Because the Nords are essential direct copies of the Norse.

 

The ancient Nords were perhaps. The Nords we interact with in Skyrim are considerably more civilized thanks to the rise of Talos and his Empire. We're essentially getting the "Twilight" version of the Norse. If the two peoples were as similar as you claim they are, we would see Battleborns and Gray-Manes killing each other in the streets.

[Archone]

You'd think so, but DUELS were always a formalized affair, designed to ensure a fair fight. Pretty much for as long as we have a recorded history, that's been the case.

 

For example for the Norse, the RL equivalent of the Nords, it was even regulated how many shields you can bring (three), and you were not allowed to step out of the duel area, etc.

 

And there were no rules for the Norse on how you fought or what you fought with (every weapon available to the Norse was available in a duel). And it is in all likelihood the same with Nords. Every weapon available to them that was acceptable in their culture would have been available in a duel. And that included the Thu'um, as back in the time when High Kings were regularly challenged like this, the Thu'um was as much an everyday weapon as the sword or the axe.

 

Actually, there were still rules. If you don't like the way the word "duel" is being thrown about, how about the word "holmgang?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmgang

 

In EVERY culture to have anything remotely like the concept of a formalized duel, there are rules and restrictions. Among these: one on one, with other participants employed solely to ensure fair adherence to the rules. Equality of weaponry, that neither side may be seen as having an unfair advantage. Restrictions regarding certain techniques and moves, mostly of a "no bringing secret weapons or having your friends jump them" variety. And of course these duels were generally a public affair, a spectator event.

 

And before you say it, no, the Way of the Voice isn't a part of greater Nordic culture. Its an extremely secluded philosophy that the vast majority of Nords will not and would not even know of in their entire lifetimes, and was actually created sometime after the use of the Thu'um had already started to wane.

 

And I'll say it anyway. A reference to "DOV...AH... KIN!" and all the guards of Windhelm immediately gasping, "the Greybeards! The Greybeard are calling!" and the Jarl of Windhelm telling you, "the Greybeards have summoned you! That is quite an honor!" and reminiscing about making the pilgrimage up the steps. And of course getting near to the place and finding that there's an entire town at the base that exists solely to support the temple near the summit. Secluded? Yes. Unknown? Hardly - this is the Nordic "Shaolin temple."

 

We should also remember that in the Norse culture of old, it was legal to kill a man on the spot if he insulted your honor. Vengeance was commonplace and encouraged, and most of these duels were not very formal. So that makes me wonder why the duel between Torygg and Ulfric had to be an actual "formal" affair.

 

If previous posts are anything to go on, then this is the part where I challenge you to provide links and citations to support your claim, and you respond with evasions and snide remarks and think that you've actually scored a point.

 

The Way of the Voice is the ONLY way for anyone to learn to use a Thu'um, aside from being the Dovahkin. Whether or not the philosophy is rational or whatnot is less important than the fact that they taught Ulfric something which was sacred to them, and Ulfric misused it in their eyes. It would be like a pop musician taking Gregorian chants and creating a remix for a video involving scantily clad dancing girls. Is it illegal? No. Are there people who are going to admire it? Probably. Is it going to offend the originators of the vocalizations in question? Most certainly.

 

Okay. Tell me what exactly is hurting the Greybeards by Ulfric using the Thu'um? Are their feelings hurt? Do they want to cut themselves now in an emo-fit?

Good question. If I used communion wafers to make breadcrumbs for a recipe of cheese stuffed pork chops served on a copy of the Koran and accompanied by a glass of Manischevitz and then serve it at a public event on national television, what exactly about that "hurts" the Catholics, Muslims, and Jews? Or would a better word be "offended?"

 

"Denying it is denying the reality of the situation for no other reason than to cling to the idea that EMPIRE GOOD. EEMPIRE BIG, BIG IS GOOD HURRP DURRP." Posted Yesterday, 04:12 PM.

 

Now tell me how I was referring to you.

 

Because it was a direct response to my statement "by going it alone. You form an alliance and you stomp them and then you notice that historical enemies are suddenly contemplating cooperative engineering and economic projects." Post #449, quoting post #448.

 

 

Fact of the matter is, there is a real distinction between what goes on in the game and what would be going on in the lore.

Not really. Nothing seen in any of the games actually conflict with any of the lore.

 

It's been happening already. They already started with the Bosmer in Valenwood. Delphine (http://www.uesp.net/...ssier:_Delphine ) explicitly states that the purges have already begun.

Because those Bosmer don't agree with them. There's a big difference between not agreeing with how the government is and not agreeing that one race is superior to the other, and thats what the purges are about. The purges are political, not racial.

And what sources or citations do you have to support that claim?

 

2. As you mentioned, they do have a religious commandment against using the Thu'um for anything but praising the gods. I mean, they're not even allowed to use it in war. I can't imagine how it would be allowed in duels.

Except they don't. The reason no one uses it is because no one can learn it without agreeing to some irrationally pacifist philosophy and giving up their normal lives to live as hermits on top of a mountain.

 

Bear in mind...the Thu'um isn't THAT powerful. You're learning how to speak in the Dragonic language, and that lets you "speak" magic. But a Thu'um isn't going to do nearly as much damage as an Expert Destruction spell. The reason no one has tried to learn the Thu'um for combat purposes in the past is because it's like bringing a Sikh dagger to a knifefight instead of a Fairbarn-Sykes or Bowie knife. It's not the most effective method, and it's going to offend the people who give it a symbolic and religious value.

 

I should note: you're really making the Stormcloak side look bad with your arguments. Your position at this point can basically be summed up as, "piss on anyone who thinks that honor, rules of conduct, and general etiquette are important. You think Ulfric offended some people? Let me mock the very same idea of outrage over religious issues that Ulfric cites to support his rebellion. Either you're willing to murder and maim not only the other side, but innocent bystanders, or you're just an emo-git because you're not sufficiently sociopathic." Frankly, I think more highly of Ulfric than you seem to.

[imperistan]

1. Because the Nords are essential direct copies of the Norse.

 

The ancient Nords were perhaps. The Nords we interact with in Skyrim are considerably more civilized thanks to the rise of Talos and his Empire. We're essentially getting the "Twilight" version of the Norse. If the two peoples were as similar as you claim they are, we would see Battleborns and Gray-Manes killing each other in the streets.

 

Civilized is relative. Pacified is accurate.

 

Actually, there were still rules.

 

And nothing in them said anything about any particular weapon being banned. The combatants could agree to certain weapons, but that was up to them. And so, as far as we know, either no weapons were agreed upon by Ulfric and Torygg, or, the Thu'um was accepted as a weapon. Your own point defeats you.

 

And again, other cultures are irrelevant here.

 

And I'll say it anyway. A reference to "DOV...AH... KIN!" and all the guards of Windhelm immediately gasping, "the Greybeards! The Greybeard are calling!" and the Jarl of Windhelm telling you, "the Greybeards have summoned you! That is quite an honor!" and reminiscing about making the pilgrimage up the steps. And of course getting near to the place and finding that there's an entire town at the base that exists solely to support the temple near the summit. Secluded? Yes. Unknown? Hardly - this is the Nordic "Shaolin temple."

 

Guess thats why theres countless peasants roaming the streets of Skyrim, quoting the teachings of Windcaller. The Way of the Voice is unknown. Not the Greybeards.

 

If previous posts are anything to go on, then this is the part where I challenge you to provide links and citations to support your claim, and you respond with evasions and snide remarks and think that you've actually scored a point.

 

And this is the part where I ask which claim you're asking me to prove. That you could in fact kill a man on the spot for insulting your honor in ancient Norse customs or that the duel between Torygg and Ulfric wasn't a "formal" duel? It helps to not try say something like that if you don't know what answer you're actually going to get.

 

And for the record, the duel in Skyrim. We have no proof of what rules or formalities were laid out by the combatants. So we can only assume that there were none. Its the burden of the accuser of cheating that must prove otherwise. Which they can't, because we can't and won't ever know what happened before the duel.

 

And as for the Norse? Their views on personal honor go deep:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C3%B0ingr

 

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/drengur.htm

 

If I used communion wafers to make breadcrumbs for a recipe of cheese stuffed pork chops served on a copy of the Koran and accompanied by a glass of Manischevitz and then serve it at a public event on national television, what exactly about that "hurts" the Catholics, Muslims, and Jews? Or would a better word be "offended?"

 

Please explain to me how a bunch of hermits being offended (if you can even show that they are, in fact, offended) means anything to the political structure of Tamriel.

 

Because it was a direct response to my statement "by going it alone. You form an alliance and you stomp them and then you notice that historical enemies are suddenly contemplating cooperative engineering and economic projects." Post #449, quoting post #448.

 

But yet, that doesn't mean I was referring to you. I don't have to refer to you personally to use your post as a jumping off point to say something in general. But I'm not getting caught up in a battle over semantics.

 

Not really. Nothing seen in any of the games actually conflict with any of the lore.

 

Guess thats why Cyrodiil was always a medieval fairy-tale land! The Imperial Legion is, truly, only comprised of a few dozen men camped out around the Imperial City. Indeed! The Imperial City! Only a hundred people live there!

 

Get my point yet?

 

And what sources or citations do you have to support that claim?

 

Do you honestly believe a government comprised of both Altmer and Bosmer would start killing off people of their own race because of their race? No, I didn't think so.

 

From the book "The Great War":

 

In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup.

 

You'll also notice that just after that passage, the book says that there was a seventy year gap when no one in the Empire knew what was occurring in the Dominion, except some rumors of internal strife. It sounds likely to me that this was a civil war that was very well contained that was fought over the coup that had just occurred in Valenwood. It is probable that families and cities that didn't want to be a part of the new Dominion fought against the Dominion and that after the initial fighting force was put down, the Thalmor went on to purge every other political dissident.

 

There's also proof in the fact that there aren't scores of Bosmer refugees. If the Dominion is systematically killing off Bosmer for no reason other than being Bosmer, you'd think we'd see refugees. You'd think we'd see news of it. Not even the Dominion can keep absolutely everyone contained within their borders, and if genocide was occuring? Scores would be fleeing and many would survive across the border. There's also the fact that this is less than 200 years AFTER these purges began. If it was genocide, most of the Bosmer would be dead now, and Malborn would not be serving drinks in a Thalmor Embassy.

 

Bear in mind...the Thu'um isn't THAT powerful. You're learning how to speak in the Dragonic language, and that lets you "speak" magic. But a Thu'um isn't going to do nearly as much damage as an Expert Destruction spell. The reason no one has tried to learn the Thu'um for combat purposes in the past is because it's like bringing a Sikh dagger to a knifefight instead of a Fairbarn-Sykes or Bowie knife. It's not the most effective method, and it's going to offend the people who give it a symbolic and religious value.

 

So you agree then that Ulfric using the Thu'um in his duel didn't actually matter? And this isn't going into how thats not the reason at all that people don't try to learn it (hint: only certain people out of the thousands that will ever come to know of the voice will ever get the chance now that the voice is not taught freely) and how you're unwisely bringing gameplay into a discussion about lore.

 

Read up on what the Thu'um actually can do (and could do) before it was turned into some stupid gameplay element that may as well not be there:

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu%27um

 

Beth doesn't even follow the same lore they put forth originally on the concept.

 

Frankly, I think more highly of Ulfric than you seem to

 

And thats a shame, because I think Ulfric is a bloody idiot.

[Deleted4666244User]

Do we even know what was allowed or not? if not arguing over it is wrong. there is no logical conclusion because we do not have all the facts about it.

[gsmanners]

Ulfric = cartoony villain

Civil war = lame

[BrettM]

Every weapon available to them that was acceptable in their culture would have been available in a duel. And that included the Thu'um, as back in the time when High Kings were regularly challenged like this, the Thu'um was as much an everyday weapon as the sword or the axe.

And what time was this? I can't find a single reference to any example anywhere in Nord history where any high king was challenged at all, much less a reference to such challenges being "regular". The heirs of Ysgrammor held the high throne from his time until the time of King Borgas -- a period of some centuries. Perhaps there were challenges between competing heirs within Ysgrammor's bloodline, but we have no example that proves this. As far as we know, it never happened at all, much less being a common state of affairs. Nor do we have any examples following the War of Sucession save for Ulfric's challenge. (Yes, obviously there must have been such challenges because you don't need a custom for something that never happens. That is a far cry from being a "regular" occurrence, though.)

 

Furthermore, the thu'um was never an everyday weapon like a sword or axe. It took years to master, just as it does for the Greybeards in recent times, and only a rare few had the necessary dedication and aptitude. The Tongues of the ancient Nords, like their battle mages, were rare and valued. Read, for example, the journal of Skorm Snow-Strider. When he ran into a situation that everyday arms could not handle, he had to request that a Voice Master be sent to his army. According to the Thu'um lore article: "Most if not all Nords have some talent for the thu'um, but it takes particular talent and many, many years of study and training to become a Tongue." I suspect that the ancient Tongues were a tightly-knit order that spent much time in secluded training and study, much like the modern Greybeards.

 

And before you say it, no, the Way of the Voice isn't a part of greater Nordic culture. Its an extremely secluded philosophy that the vast majority of Nords will not and would not even know of in their entire lifetimes, and was actually created sometime after the use of the Thu'um had already started to wane.

Nonsense. The principles of the Way of the Voice are inscribed on the 10 tablets lining the 7,000 Steps. When we go to High Hrothgar, we see pilgrims studying these tablets and meditating on them. The story told by those tablets must be well known among the Nords, spread by those who make the pilgrimmage, including the principle that the Voice only be used for True Need and never for wars of conquest. "While the Greybeards are famed keepers of the Way of the Voice, the core precepts of the philosophy are still reflected in Nordic culture." (Emphasis added.)

 

What makes you think that the use of the thu'um had already started to wane by the time of Jurgen Windcaller? I have seen nothing in the lore that even implies this, much less states it so baldly. Where does this information come from?

 

What makes you think the Way of the Voice is simply pacifism? Not supporting wars of conquest does not make one a pacifist any more than it makes one an isolationist. The Voice is the Nordic equivalent of a nuclear weapon. Look at what Alduin did to Helgen and tell me that's not true. Even if no individual human Tongue could match that performance, a small group of them certainly could. For the Greybeards to try to keep such a weapon out of the hands of just anyone who wants it is hardly proof of pacifism. From Lore: Way of the Voice:

 

Due to the rarity of times of "True Need" and the nonviolent lifestyles of the Greybeard monks (the most famous practitioners of the Way of the Voice), the philosophy is generally viewed to be one of pacifism. Actually, the Way of the Voice merely teaches that using the thu'um for battle is merely "the least of its uses".

 

You also keep accusing Windcaller of inventing the philosophy to save face. He claimed that the defeat at Red Mountain was a punishment from the gods for misuse of the gift that Kynareth gave them. How do you know that this isn't true? How do you know for a fact that Windcaller did not receive some divine revelation to this effect during his seven-year meditation? This is a world where the gods truly exist and do interact with mortals at times. You may be correct, but where is your proof that Windcaller made it all up out of butthurt?

 

Bear in mind...the Thu'um isn't THAT powerful. You're learning how to speak in the Dragonic language, and that lets you "speak" magic. But a Thu'um isn't going to do nearly as much damage as an Expert Destruction spell. The reason no one has tried to learn the Thu'um for combat purposes in the past is because it's like bringing a Sikh dagger to a knifefight instead of a Fairbarn-Sykes or Bowie knife. It's not the most effective method, and it's going to offend the people who give it a symbolic and religious value.

There IS a distinction between lore and gameplay, and gameplay can be under restrictions that do not exist in lore. This is an uncomfortable fact because it does lead to arguments over whether someone is arbitrarily picking and choosing, but it is a fact nonetheless.

 

In lore, the thu'um IS that powerful. We are told so over and over again, and we are shown some of it.

 

We are told that most of the Greybeards do not speak because their merest whisper could kill someone, yet the dovahkiin -- with a thu'um supposedly more powerful than Alduin's -- can do no such thing in gameplay. We see the earth shake when they welcome the dovahkiin and when Einar chastises Arngeir for refusing to help us get to Paarthurnax, yet they are just speaking ordinary sentences, not using phrases that have been defined as Shouts for gameplay purposes.

 

We are told the ancient Nords had both battle mages and Tongues, and it is the Tongues that were called when an army needed to breach a fortress. Why, if the battle mages were more powerful? In lore, it is established that the Tongues had more power, yet this is obviously not true in gameplay. A young Voice Master brought down the main gate of Forelhost in lore, but our character can't even blow the door off a busted wardrobe in gameplay.

 

I could cite more examples, but I think I've made the point. There is a major difference between the lore and the gameplay where the Voice is concerned, and only one of the two can be regarded as canonical. I pick the lore.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Do not forget that according to legends the most powerful Thu'um users were able to sing the ghost of Shor himself back into the world.

 

IMO, to be able to bring Lorkhan back into the world is a power only rivaled by the Redguard Sword-Singers ability to split atoms, and that sword-singing power was so great even Vivec, who is immortal, crapped his pants when Cyrus threatened to use it against him.

Edited July 4, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Archone]

Bear in mind...the Thu'um isn't THAT powerful. You're learning how to speak in the Dragonic language, and that lets you "speak" magic. But a Thu'um isn't going to do nearly as much damage as an Expert Destruction spell. The reason no one has tried to learn the Thu'um for combat purposes in the past is because it's like bringing a Sikh dagger to a knifefight instead of a Fairbarn-Sykes or Bowie knife. It's not the most effective method, and it's going to offend the people who give it a symbolic and religious value.

There IS a distinction between lore and gameplay, and gameplay can be under restrictions that do not exist in lore. This is an uncomfortable fact because it does lead to arguments over whether someone is arbitrarily picking and choosing, but it is a fact nonetheless.

 

In lore, the thu'um IS that powerful. We are told so over and over again, and we are shown some of it.

 

We are told that most of the Greybeards do not speak because their merest whisper could kill someone, yet the dovahkiin -- with a thu'um supposedly more powerful than Alduin's -- can do no such thing in gameplay. We see the earth shake when they welcome the dovahkiin and when Einar chastises Arngeir for refusing to help us get to Paarthurnax, yet they are just speaking ordinary sentences, not using phrases that have been defined as Shouts for gameplay purposes.

 

We are told the ancient Nords had both battle mages and Tongues, and it is the Tongues that were called when an army needed to breach a fortress. Why, if the battle mages were more powerful? In lore, it is established that the Tongues had more power, yet this is obviously not true in gameplay. A young Voice Master brought down the main gate of Forelhost in lore, but our character can't even blow the door off a busted wardrobe in gameplay.

 

I could cite more examples, but I think I've made the point. There is a major difference between the lore and the gameplay where the Voice is concerned, and only one of the two can be regarded as canonical. I pick the lore.

 

I'm only responding to Brett, because he's the only one who's said anything worth responding to. You... make a very compelling argument. The Dovahkin naturally picks up in a few short days what the Greybeards spend years training to do. It's quite possible that the Greybeards are far more capable with the Thu'um than the Dovahkin himself. I'm thinking that a mod that eliminated the recharge time for Shouts would be a huge upgrade by itself (like Destruction spells that need no magicka). Throw in an actual upgrade in the power levels consistant with the "Blackbolt mute" deal, and I can see the Greybeards being capable of Fus-Rah-Do-ing even a giant clear across the border into Hammerfell. I'm going to have to concede that the Thu'um is likely a lot more powerful in the hands of the people trained to use it.

[gsmanners]

Seriously. You guys are overthinking this.

 

The civil war was never a part of the original design of the game. It was obviously just a cheesy afterthought that some suit thought would be a good idea. There's no compelling story here. There's just nothing. It's a lame, ridiculous time waster. There's no point in arguing about it because there was zero thought put into creating it. It's like arguing whether the burning of King Olaf is really the right thing to do. Lame.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Not sure if gsmanners is serious or not.

 

A quest-line revolving around three of the games biggest figures reenacting the series of events that not only led to the creation of Mundus, but also the apotheosis of Talos. An event that very well could cause a new god, born of the combined souls of the Dovahkiin, Tullius, and Ulfric, to emerge.

 

The civil war contains tons of symbolic imagery, and mythic-echo, with past events in the games, and the resulting consequences of said mythic-echo could have world changing events in the lore.

 

 

The only way one can considered the civil war an afterthought is if one knows nothing of the lore.

Edited July 4, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000