Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[imperistan]

snip

 

And this is why I dub the Emperor Short-sight McGee. The Legions in Cyrodiil may have fought to exhaustion but that doesn't mean they couldn't have kept the war going. Keeping the war going back then wouldn't have demanded an invasion of the Dominion. An invasion of the Dominion would have to have been a separate war no matter what happened. No, the Legions in Cyrodiil that couldn't fight offensively could have served a defensive capacity, and they would have been supported by the two provinces to the North (High Rock and Skyrim) that never even saw the war, and thus would have had little trouble funneling in supplies and fresh troops as time went on. Those that could fight could either be kept on defensively or sent to help Hammerfel.

 

Being tired of war is no excuse, as Hammerfel was going to be seeing war regardless, the Dominion wasn't going to be stupid enough to have another go at Cyrodiil (Do note that for all the Dominion knew, the Legions in Cyrodiil could have kept fighting. Their entire presence there was wiped out, so it wasn't like they had a ready supply of information on the Legions anymore), and High Rock and Skyrim would never have saw the war period. All Cyrodiil needed have done was put all of its troops on the Dominion's borders, battle-ready or not, and Cyrodiil would not have seen another invasion unless things in Hammerfel went bad, which they wouldn't have (as what actually happened shows us).

 

You don't fight for the Prom queen's hand just to give to her to your mortal enemy after you've already won her unless you've already found your own prom queen, and Emperor McGee most certainly did not find one of those.

 

 

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You don't buy time with the Dominion. You sell them time. And whats worse, you don't rebuild yourself by abandoning one of your most important provinces (the one province that could mount a feasible attack on the Dominion by sea and also harbors some of the most capable warriors on Tamriel) and letting the enemy reap the rewards it sought in the war YOU won. You don't give the Grand Trophy to the people that just committed thousands upon thousands of atrocities against your own people.

 

We didn't give a Billion dollars to Osama Bin Laden for 9/11. We found him and killed him. Not to bring in a touchy subject (and as far as I'm concerned thats as far as that's going to go) but I can't think of another way to really drive this point home.

 

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This right here:

 

Ulfric is doing nothing but weakening them further.

 

Clearly indicates that you believe the Empire is actually standing in the Dominion's way. It also doesn't help that just about everyone on the Empire's side tends to assume that anyway, so I usually bring it up regardless.

 

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Clearly you never played Morrowind.

 

Being indifferent to self-entitled elves who haven't realized they aren't in Morrowind anymore doesn't make him racist. Khajiit? Tell me why he should let people who are essentially in bed with the Dominion into his city, particularly when no one else in Skyrim is doing so either.

 

Keeping Argonians out of the city is racist, but it makes him normal among Nords. Argonians have always been looked down upon, and to criticize him for is to criticize him for not being Tamriel's equivalent of whoever the first whiteman to speak out against racism against blacks was is pointless. You're holding him to a standard that he would never actually be held to.

 

And thats why this argument over racism is so incredibly futile. You're inserting 21st century, real world values into a world that is nothing like the real world, and whats more, is more than a thousand years behind us in social development.

 

You also have to realize that racism in Tamriel has more weight than it does in the real world. The different races are in essence different species from each other, and as such it would be FAR harder to dislodge racism from Tamriel in any significant way.

 

And there's a parallel in the real world too. It was relatively easy to squash racism (granted we haven't completely gotten rid of it, but compared to what it was it may as well not exist) in the real world because racism had no weight whatsoever. But now look at how most humans treat animals. Thats exactly how the different races of Tamriel see each other when individuals are racially charged. Now tell me how easy you think it would be to convince a vast majority of people to treat other animals (we're animals too, believe it or not) as equals.

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And guess what, if I went to a Morrowind village and started talking to some Argonians or Khajiit about being treated badly by Dunmer, they'd say the same. IF I went to a Nord, I'd get a similar answer. If I went to anyone who wasn't a Dunmer or at the last born in Morrowind, I could guarantee a good majority of them would have something to say about being treated unfairly. It would be no different if I went to the Summerset Isles or Hammerfel or Elsweyr or wherever else. Cyrodiil is the only place where racism wouldn't be as prevalent and thats only because of the nature of such a central area.

 

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Georgigrill

 

1. It may not be a medieval Earth setting, but socially and technologically it is the equivalent. As I said above, Tamriel is not at a point of social evolution for racism to actually be an issue for anyone to get worked up over.

 

2. Argonians are a given, but the Dunmer made their own slum. They have all the power to make that place better, but they're too lazy to do it. As one of the Dunmer farmers would say, if you want the Nord's respect you have to earn it through hardwork. Ulfric has zero reason to just baby the Dunmer, particularly when he has a war to deal with (as in, his funds are already strained as it is) and when the Dunmer wouldn't pitch a hand in to help with anything (whether its the war or just helping out around the city).

 

Long story short, the Dunmer don't deserve a handout. The Dunmer would never give a hand out to the Nords if the roles were reversed (and just about everyone knows this) and they are doing nothing to deserve more direct help from Ulfric.

 

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The Dunmer have zero right to complain, they've done worse, and they aren't actually being oppressed regardless, (a couple drunken beggars shouting into the night doesn't make for active oppression) so they have nothing to complain about. Khajiit are being looked down upon by EVERYBODY. So you criticize Ulfric for the Khajiit's issues, and you're criticizing the whole of Skyrim. Argonians, again, a given.

 

Again, you seem to be holding Ulfric to a standard that not only doesn't exist in the TES universe, but a standard that even if it did exist in the minds of some individuals he would never be held to. Ulfric is not and was not ever meant to be this revolutionary thinker that ends racism in Tamriel. He's simply going on with his life believing what he was brought up to believe (and the only people that could provide a counter point don't even believe this an issue. You may see some people that aren't racist, but there isn't a single one of them actively doing anything about it. You had the Twin Lamps in Morrowind, but that was about slavery, and as we know from US history, ending slavery =/= ending racism) and going by what he's seen. You simply cannot criticize him for not being a Martin Luther King Jr of his world, when such things like civil rights and whatever aren't even concepts in his world. These things only exist as tip of the tongues to those few individuals who already aren't racist, and who simply have no reason to move for those things.

[trukittn]

:psyduck:

 

Why does every topic about Ulfric end up being a pointless debate on whether or not he's racist? And I say pointless because those who have made up their minds on this issue will not be swayed by ridiculously long and one-sided posts. Myself included. I maintain he is not the racist jackass that some are utterly convinced he is, but I already made my soapbox arguments in another thread. Any evidence to the contrary can be equally countered with evidence supporting my view. In the end, it is up to the player to decide what they feel based on what they've found in game. Could be they didn't read Dunmer of Skyrim or Scourge of the Gray Quarter. Could be they're hopelessly attached to the image of the Empire that Oblivion left us with. I figure nothing I say will change that.

 

Anyway, of course I think he was right to challenge Torygg. Skyrim needed someone who was willing to fight to reclaim what was given to the Thalmor. Someone who wouldn't surrender to the dominion. Ulfric might not be the friendliest cat on the block, but he's not wrong in what he's trying to do.

 

Tullius: We're not the bad guys you know.

Ulfric: Maybe not, but you certainly aren't the good guys.

Tullius: Perhaps you're right. But then, what does that make you?

Ulfric: You said it yourself.

 

I love that part. :tongue:

[Georgiegril]

Why does every topic about Ulfric end up being a pointless debate on whether or not he's racist?

The beginning of this, as I recall was whether a racist leader could be a good leader for Skyrim.

 

I agree that Torygg was weak, a puppet, or at least a pawn, and that it was completely within reason for anyone within Skyrim to challenge him.

I don't agree that the means by which Ulfric did so, or his actions thereafter, demonstrated the leadership qualities which would win my support for him as Torygg's replacement.

Specifically, his unwillingness to demonstrate superior strength in battle using matched weapons, the unequal treatment of the people which he hoped to govern, and his lack of diplomatic skills with others--not just the Thalmor, or even the Empire, but fellow Jarls.

 

So if the question were would Ulfric be right to challange the king, I would say yes. To kill the king in the manner he chose? Not by my estimation. And the right to BE the king? Not with my support.....

[MacSuibhne]

:psyduck:

 

Why does every topic about Ulfric end up being a pointless debate on whether or not he's racist?

 

Any evidence to the contrary can be equally countered with evidence supporting my view.

 

Exactly!

 

It's kind of like the current (RL) administration's take on unemployment. They insist it's going down. And in fact, it is. But what isn't said...or acknowledged, or, more importantly dealt with...is that the employment rate is also going down. Last I heard...couple of weeks ago (?)...it was at 62% +/-

 

Think about it...which is correct 62% employment or 8% (+/-) unemployment? Of course, they both are but, now...which reveals the more valid picture?

 

I don't want to inject current affairs or politics into this discussion but it is an immediate and accurate example of the way the facts can be twisted.

 

Why does the issue of racism always arise? Perhaps it's simply easier to label Ulfric a racist than confront the notion that collusion and appeasement are not the most honourable of paths.

 

And I suspect this kind of tension is exactly what Bethesda intended.

Edited May 23, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[robanybody2000]

I agree with the fact that calling someone "racist" in Skyrim is a little off-hand since almost all of Tamriel is "racial aware". Every bunch has bad apples, either in charge or as commoners. When i started playing as Khajiit or aragonian, the fact that the Captain was calling me to the block by "the cat" or "the lizard" bodered me since the option of escaping with the stormcloacks just so i get to kill her. Playing a Dunmer, no problem...set Ulfric as unessential then assassinate him (same for those 2 Nords when you first enter Windhelm). Point is if Skyrim (in fact Tamriel) is that harsh of a place were discrimination is accepted means that as Khajiit you'll have to kill everyone, as Argonian or Dumner kill Ulfric, as Nord kill Tulius, as Imperial kill Ulfric again, so on and so on but that is not the case in most of the times. It will be best to not talk abbout "racism" because there are tons of flawes and also good points to every leader that we can have a normal debate instead of 6 pages of "racism".

 

Sorry for the spelling, english is not my first language but i try my best. (corrections are welcomed)

[SubjectProphet]

Ok, SWITCH THE TOPIC! We're discussing why Ulfric was right to murder Toryg, not whether or not he was racist.

[robanybody2000]

Thanx SubjectProphet.

 

As Ulfric was betrayed by Torygg he had every right to chalange him and eventualy kill him in fair battle, but the fact that Torigg IS in Sovngarde sets the question if Ulfric proceded honorably in killing him. I don't know if using the thu'um is considered honorable in Nord traditions even if used to disarm or mop the floor with Torigg seen how a Fus Ro Dah works. Maybe just Fus or Fus Ro because we don't know if Ulfric knows all 3 words.

[imperistan]

Thanx SubjectProphet.

 

As Ulfric was betrayed by Torygg he had every right to chalange him and eventualy kill him in fair battle, but the fact that Torigg IS in Sovngarde sets the question if Ulfric proceded honorably in killing him. I don't know if using the thu'um is considered honorable in Nord traditions even if used to disarm or mop the floor with Torigg seen how a Fus Ro Dah works. Maybe just Fus or Fus Ro because we don't know if Ulfric knows all 3 words.

 

Ulfric ends up in Sovngaarde too.

 

And betrayed? No one betrayed anyone. Ulfric challenged Torygg's position as High-King, and a duel was the honorable way of settling this dispute according to Nordic tradition.

[robanybody2000]

What do you mean? Torigg betraied Ulfric after retaking the Reach from the Forsworn, by promising him free worship of Talos. And what do you mean Ulfric ends up in Sovngaarde too?

[imperistan]

What do you mean? Torigg betraied Ulfric after retaking the Reach from the Forsworn, by promising him free worship of Talos. And what do you mean Ulfric ends up in Sovngaarde too?

 

Oh I thought you were saying the opposite (Ulfric betraying Torygg). I stand corrected.

 

And yes, Ulfric does end up in Sovngaarde when you kill him during the Legion questline. And if we presume that the way of things regarding Sovngaarde aren't as simple as just "dying in battle", which is what I believe, then Ulfric would have never gotten into Sovngaarde if killing Torygg was in actuality a dishonorable act.