Does school kill creativity?

[Lisnpuppy]

I believe that if you decide to have a child that their welfare should come first over any other thing. Parents not having "time" to help their children is to me...a fatally-flawed argument. You MAKE the time for your children. They are YOUR responsibility and if they are acting inappropriately you will have to accept responsibility for them.

 

That being said....I believe that the major reason that children not only do not learn the things they should in schools and have any creative time is because school systems have been emasculated in their ability to provide discipline in the classroom. Besides the parents that will not make their children be accountable for their actions and forever get them from trouble, to the face that there is basically little recourse for teachers and admin to make children behave. The system of warnings and notes home and pleas for good behavior are completely worthless. As such children think they can and do behave horrible in classrooms and to teacher, disrupting the learning environment to the point that nothing else gets done in the class. Now I don't believe going back to paddling kids is right, but when I was in school we didn't act like this because we knew punishment would happen and happen fast and hard.

 

Parents not taking responsibility for their children also feeds into this but schools obviously can not control that. However society is now made up of folks that do not take responsibility and we seem to find value in folks making light of when they do something wrong. I point to commercials of Charlie Sheen (the Fiat commercial) and Alex Baldwin (Capital One card) there they both make fun of their recent troubling behavior. Yes its a joke but it just goes to my point that society doesn't really care if anyone takes responsibility and feels bad about their behavior and wants to make amends.

 

In this environment teaching the basics is almost impossible much less find a creative outlet. I just read an article that a school district in Michigan...which test their 11th graders for college prep....found that 95 percent failed the reading, 97% the math and 100% failed the social studies. This is in America....the school system does not have the ability to hold these kids back when they are not performing...the parents and the rest of society don't seem to care that they are doing these children a great disservice.

 

It makes me sick to my stomach.

[HeyYou]

I believe that if you decide to have a child that their welfare should come first over any other thing. Parents not having "time" to help their children is to me...a fatally-flawed argument. You MAKE the time for your children. They are YOUR responsibility and if they are acting inappropriately you will have to accept responsibility for them.

 

That being said....I believe that the major reason that children not only do not learn the things they should in schools and have any creative time is because school systems have been emasculated in their ability to provide discipline in the classroom. Besides the parents that will not make their children be accountable for their actions and forever get them from trouble, to the face that there is basically little recourse for teachers and admin to make children behave. The system of warnings and notes home and pleas for good behavior are completely worthless. As such children think they can and do behave horrible in classrooms and to teacher, disrupting the learning environment to the point that nothing else gets done in the class. Now I don't believe going back to paddling kids is right, but when I was in school we didn't act like this because we knew punishment would happen and happen fast and hard.

 

Parents not taking responsibility for their children also feeds into this but schools obviously can not control that. However society is now made up of folks that do not take responsibility and we seem to find value in folks making light of when they do something wrong. I point to commercials of Charlie Sheen (the Fiat commercial) and Alex Baldwin (Capital One card) there they both make fun of their recent troubling behavior. Yes its a joke but it just goes to my point that society doesn't really care if anyone takes responsibility and feels bad about their behavior and wants to make amends.

 

In this environment teaching the basics is almost impossible much less find a creative outlet. I just read an article that a school district in Michigan...which test their 11th graders for college prep....found that 95 percent failed the reading, 97% the math and 100% failed the social studies. This is in America....the school system does not have the ability to hold these kids back when they are not performing...the parents and the rest of society don't seem to care that they are doing these children a great disservice.

 

It makes me sick to my stomach.

 

YEE HAA!

 

I find myself 100% in agreement with you.

[imperistan]

I believe that if you decide to have a child that their welfare should come first over any other thing. Parents not having "time" to help their children is to me...a fatally-flawed argument. You MAKE the time for your children. They are YOUR responsibility and if they are acting inappropriately you will have to accept responsibility for them.

 

Problem is is that its getting to a point where only the extremely fortunate can afford to make time. Sure, you can always find some amount of time to spend with your children but it won't be enough. And again, for the vast majority of people, the time that they can make is going to be more about their own recovery than their child's development.

 

That being said....I believe that the major reason that children not only do not learn the things they should in schools and have any creative time is because school systems have been emasculated in their ability to provide discipline in the classroom. Besides the parents that will not make their children be accountable for their actions and forever get them from trouble, to the face that there is basically little recourse for teachers and admin to make children behave

 

Discipline doesn't teach children anything. It only conditions them like a dog to conform to acceptable "standards" only for them to throw that conformity away as soon as the guarantee of punishment breaks down. Its literally throwing a bandaid onto a knife wound. You don't teach kids how to be responsible people by conditioning them to associate punishment with certain actions (But only when you're most likely to get caught), you teach them by talking to them and making them understand why certain behaviors aren't acceptable and why its only under the protection and guidance of their parents that nothing actually comes of what they do. You literally make them more intelligent in this way (and generally far more independent, which is a good thing) when their not weighing what punishment they might get against the thrill of "breaking the rules" but actually looking at whatever actions they're thinking of taking and deciding whether or not they believe what they're doing is actually wrong, and whether they'll be willing to accept the consequences, be they good or bad.

 

I have two little nieces and they are about as spoiled as they come. I was charged with watching them one day, and as two spoiled sisters do, they started fighting and causing a fuss. Rather than sit there and yell at them and threaten physical or mental punishment if they didn't "quit it", I sat down with them, talked out the issue (it was over who got to use what toys in the pool) and got them to play more nice than their parents ever did.

 

As for in school, discipline isn't the issue except in the most extreme cases (and honestly, in those particular cases, the child's case is fairly hopeless unless he's one of those cliche "screw up that has a genius level IQ" sorts of children, and even then) so much as it is just ineffective teaching. For instance when I was in school there was a group of kids that were always seeing detention, getting sent out of class, etc etc and these kids usually got out of hand when they were in the classrooms of teachers who barely knew how to teach or were just totally ineffective even if they did know how to teach. But then you put these kids in the classroom of someone like our old 12th grade english teacher, who was basically amazing in how he was able to teach the subject matter but while also keeping all of our attentions on the subject matter, including those kids, and you never see them act up. In fact, in that particular class, the only time he ever had a problem with anyone in the 4 years I was at that school was when the one kid was getting ready to brawl the other kid across the way as soon as class let out, but then decided to throw the punch a couple minutes before the bell.

 

Put a teacher who can make anyone actually want to learn in every classroom (and get rid of this crap about teaching the test rather than the understanding of the subject that most teachers have to do now) and I guarantee that the vast majority of problem children will simply be those that aren't going to be helped by anything, whether it be a good teacher or a heavy hand to the rear end.

 

 

And as for the rest of your post, again, all to often it isn't the parents fault. There are bad, uncaring parents out there yes, but there are also a LOT of parents that are putting their children being fed and clothed above their creative development, and honestly, you'd have to be a terrible person to sit there and still place blame on these parents for their children's issues.

 

Indeed this debate reminds me of a little mini-argument I had on the chat about education in America and how, apparently, almost every American is a lazy, uneducated yokel that's just spending all the free time they, apparently, have on frivolous crap. And my argument was that no, it wasn't a matter of the vast majority of American's being lazy and not wanting to learn, it was a matter of the vast majority of American's not having the economic freedom to educate themselves fully. And its for much the same reason that a lot of children end up having to have their creativity fostered by someone else or by themselves. I for instance grew up with absolutely zero input from my parents as far as my education and what not went, and I'm slightly under genius level, all because I developed my own interest in learning and being creative. I picked up dozens of random hobbies (ranging from magic to digital art to writing poetry and hell all the way to Titantic fanboyism) because hey, what else was I to do with no friends and parents that were always working? Most kids however do not usually find themselves with a love of learning, and if they spend any time around others their own age they generally won't grow that interest on their own.

 

But yes, the school system is very, very flawed, and this is mostly because of NCLB and generally poor standards (are there even any real standards for this?) for who gets to actually teach in a major academic classroom.

[Lisnpuppy]

@Imperistan

 

First...I do not believe I specified what type of discipline needed to happen. However children must learn that there are rules and that disrupting a classroom is not permitted on a regular basis. In my children's schools disruptions happen on every level and this directly interferes with the ability to learn. By discipline I mean that a person must be held responsible for their actions and know that there are indeed consequence for bad behavior. How can teaching be effective if a teacher spends most of class time having to deal with a student or students disruption? Does a teacher have time to sit and reasonably discuss each behavior every time? Yes maybe once or two times...but eventually the child KNOWS they are doing something wrong and no amount of time will make it otherwise. You don't have to beat a child down into the ground to make them understand good civic behavior. When a classroom is able to serve its primary function...of a learning environment...then not only education will improve but creativity can more easily flourish.

 

I believe (and this sounds a bit socialist) that everyone should have equal access to education. Perhaps a pipe dream I know. But for you to absolve parents from responsibility of their childrens' actions is to me some of the issue here. My parents while growing up were dirt poor. We lived at the lower class standards...I had extreme medical issues, my parents both worked full-time and my Father was (well-he is a recovering now) alcoholic. To say my parents were busy and "behind the eight ball" was an understatement. However my parents took the TIME to insure that I was receiving a good education and grew up to behave properly. What they gave up in personal sacrifice I am only now coming to understand. But everything has a price. They knew my friends...as I got older they knew where I went and what I did. They were smart enough to teach me well and to "get in my business." As I often tell my children...I am not there to be their best friend. I am there to be their Mother. There is a distinct difference.

 

I am not willing to say 100% of parents are 100% responsible 100% of the time. But if there are major issue....well the buck has to stop somewhere and the parents are where the buck should stop. Schools should be teaching our children academics, not raising them as their own.

 

You can think discipline is conformity. I can tell you for personal experience that it is not. Can it be. For sure. I have discipline. I mostly behaved well in school, made good grades....but I have not conformed. However I have also learned at this stage in my life (over 40 now) that one must pick their battles. Your example of your nieces....don't you realize that you in fact gave them a form of discipline? You saw a behavior that was unacceptable and you addressed it. They stopped. What if it had not? What would have been your next step?

 

Anyway this is getting a little bit off topic. I think that disruptions in the classroom because teachers and schools can not effectively make children behave is a reason for poor education and lack of creativity in schools. I don't think the fact that you seem to view me as "The Man" has been an effective anti-argument to that....I think you disagree with me and perhaps incorrectly view me as a person why believes in tyrannical forms of discipline when I never stated what kind of discipline be provided. Only that people learn and accept responsibility for their actions.

[Keanumoreira]

Lisn, you have spoken well and have come a long way over your life. I find your opinions not only deserving, but weighted with some kind of general truth. That is to say, I agree with you. My parents (whom I love dearly) were originally poor immigrants from Europe. They did not receive the education I am blessed to obtain (but have managed to somehow squander because I didn't appreciate it then as I do now, and often find myself at odds with myself in regards to getting off my lazy butt and bothering to teach myself) and more often than not, I've had to teach and help them more than they have taught and helped me. I have no choice. I HAVE to teach myself, that or my school, which doesn't do the job the justice it deserves. I have the IQ, I'm estimating, to that of the average citizen, which is no where as satisfactory as what I COULD be. Perhaps I am still too young, but I feel that my challenges against procrastination and pure laziness can be overcome. I know I have the mind of an intellectual. By that, I mean, I want to learn everything. I'm curious about everything. My only problem is that I want to learn it right away. I can't focus on concentrating on the matter at hand because I'm too focused on wanting to learn it then and there rather than accepting the reality that it takes time and that I must be patient. Again, I must teach myself here. My parents, although very loving and supportive, are either too busy or too tired to assist me. It's a journey I'll have to brave alone.

 

 

But, anyway, I find your views very nourishing, and indeed, your children are very lucky to have you as their mother. They have no idea just how lucky they really are. It's thoughtful actions such as these that help foster creativity, expressiveness, and individuality in this world. Kudos for you. :thumbsup:

Edited July 28, 2012 by Keanumoreira

[naomis8329]

Whilst the old saying is true that anyone can have a child, we need to remember that it takes a great deal of love, patience and time to be a parent. The same can be said of teachers. I guess I have been lucky with my youngest children, all their teachers, from nursery through to high school which they are all attending now, have been brilliant, dedicated and adore their charges, one and all.

 

Never once have any of them given up on my children and between us we have gotten them through the bumps of the past and we shall continue to do so in the future. As parents and teachers, we can only guide, ultimately the child makes the final decision whether to learn or not.

 

We can't force a child to do anything, god help me I've tried. If they don't want to do something then woe betide anyone who tries to force them. Luckily, they have a lifetime in which to decide what they wish to do and how to go about it.

 

As a parent I offer advice, love and assistance in equal measure the former and the latter given when requested. The middle is given all the time and they never have to ask for it.

 

My eldest son wishes to become an architect, we have had a numerous meetings with teacher to decide which subjects he should take in order to achieve this goal. The majority of subjects are academic, but too much academic learning can and does lead to information overload, as a result we have had to make the decision to take 2 of the 12 subjects and make them non academic thereby giving him "downtime", something other than wall to wall learning. This hopefully will enable him to have fun and expand himself without overloading himself at the same time.

 

These decisions were made between my son, his parents and his teachers. Are we lucky here in the UK (even here in a rural city) whereby we have teachers dedicated to treating each student as an individual, or are the tides in the educational system turning?

 

I guess only time will tell and its an age I'm thoroughly looking forward too :D

[grannywils]

Naomis8329, the more often I read your reasoned and well thought out posts the more I like you. Thanks for your above post. I do like your perspective. :thumbsup:

[Iv000]

Whilst the old saying is true that anyone can have a child, we need to remember that it takes a great deal of love, patience and time to be a parent. The same can be said of teachers. I guess I have been lucky with my youngest children, all their teachers, from nursery through to high school which they are all attending now, have been brilliant, dedicated and adore their charges, one and all.

 

Never once have any of them given up on my children and between us we have gotten them through the bumps of the past and we shall continue to do so in the future. As parents and teachers, we can only guide, ultimately the child makes the final decision whether to learn or not.

 

We can't force a child to do anything, god help me I've tried. If they don't want to do something then woe betide anyone who tries to force them. Luckily, they have a lifetime in which to decide what they wish to do and how to go about it.

 

As a parent I offer advice, love and assistance in equal measure the former and the latter given when requested. The middle is given all the time and they never have to ask for it.

 

My eldest son wishes to become an architect, we have had a numerous meetings with teacher to decide which subjects he should take in order to achieve this goal. The majority of subjects are academic, but too much academic learning can and does lead to information overload, as a result we have had to make the decision to take 2 of the 12 subjects and make them non academic thereby giving him "downtime", something other than wall to wall learning. This hopefully will enable him to have fun and expand himself without overloading himself at the same time.[

 

These decisions were made between my son, his parents and his teachers. Are we lucky here in the UK (even here in a rural city) whereby we have teachers dedicated to treating each student as an individual, or are the tides in the educational system turning?

 

I guess only time will tell and its an age I'm thoroughly looking forward too :D

If you would have been my mother, I would be one of the happiest people alive right now.

 

The italic part of your post is what would have meant a lot to me.

Naomis you have no idea how much you are helping your son with doing this.

I have ADD, and I have been in 'information overload' for the past 6 years. Because the teachers don't treat us as individuals. I need flexibility to work, flexibility and interest mostly. If it's not interesting, it's impossible for me to work or even begin working. If I'm not in a flexible environment, I will get stressed, depressed and will be unable to work. Needless to say I am doing pretty bad at school. But when it comes to things I enjoy doing, like computers, programming, etc. I guarantee I am best in my class. History, Language, Maths? I almost failed those.

 

Because of that, I developed social anxiety disorder and now I am extremely anti-social and have a low self esteem. I'm not making this up, I cannot talk with my best friend over voice chat because of that, I have serious mental problems.

 

(Please don't get this wrong, I'm not a bad student I'm trying my best, I want to be the best in my class at everything. But because of ADD, I cannot. No matter how hard I try, it's impossible for me. It's like teaching a bird to run. The bird will never be good at running. But it's exceptionally great at flying. Criticism from the teachers and students then lead me to low self esteem and social anxiety disorder.)

 

Yeah. School, if done wrong like in my case, not only kills your creativity, but it kills your personality and your self confidence.

I'll have to go through a lot to get to a reasonable social and self confident level. All of that because school and teachers taught me that I was wrong my entire life.

[naomis8329]

That saddens me to hear honey, because instead of playing to your strengths ie your love of computers and your ability to work with them and other subjects that involve "doing" rather than reading writing and arithmetic, your creativity is being dampened and your enthusiasm curbed.

 

I do wish that more schools would play to their students "strengths" instead of beating their "weaknesses" into them. Do they not realise that each child is an individual, that not everyone can be a Steven Hawkins, not everyone is destined to be a brain surgeon.

 

Learning is divided into three different ways, Auditory, Visual and the combination of two. Every fits one of those stereotypes, however that is were the similarity ends. Every child has a learning capacity that is different from their peers. They learn at different speeds and in different ways and whilst some children excel at maths others can just about get by on the 2 times table. This is not a bad thing as those children who can't do maths will most probably be the most talented artists you will ever meet and, properly guided, could end up being the next Stella McCartney or Christopher Wren.

 

Why do why stereotype our children? Why do we pigeon-hole them. No two children are the same, no two dyslexics have the same problem, no two children with ADD behave the same way, learn the same way or need encouragement the same way.

 

The days of learning by rote are gone, the time has come to individualise our charges or we will be doing them a disfavour. They are not automatons they are living, breathing, inquisitive individuals who have the propensity to fly. We need to stop clipping their wings.

[Iv000]

I am glad to hear that you think like this. There should be more people that understand that, it would be so much easier and better for everyone involved. Your children are lucky to have you as a mom.

 

Not saying my parents are bad or anything, on the contrary I love them of course, but the way things work here I'm pretty limited to what I described before.