Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[sajuukkhar9000]

To truly understand...to find an objective perspective...you cannot dismiss the WGC and the way that the Empire caved to the AD. You cannot dismiss the 30 years that have gone by with no significant movement on the part of the Empire to fulfill it assurances of rebuilding and re-arming. Or that, in fact, by allowing Thalmor patrols in Skyrim and Cyrodiil, the Empire has given up a critical military advantage. You cannot wave away the the fact that the Empire aids and abets Thalmor activity in Skyrim, anymore than you can wave away the political relationships between a vassal High king and the Emperor and the equally submissive relationship of the Emperor to the AD.

Because when facing an enemy that has more resources then you do, and that if you continued to fight in a stalemated war, which the war had become, would result in your loss, it is inexcusable to surrender so that you can live to fight another day instead of continuing a war that would eventually result in you losing, and the destruction of The Empire?

 

The Empire only had to allow Thalmor patrols in Skyrim and Cyordiil because Ulfric made a big deal over the Talos worship ban. Several NPCs in the game make mention that before Ulfric started his Stormcloak group, people worshiped Talos in their homes without fear of being dragged off. It was the actions of Ulfric that forced The Empire's hand into allowing The Thalmor to walk around, before Uflric The Thalmor were very marginalized.

 

Actually The Empire pretty much lets The Thalmor run their own show. the Empire is not actively helping The Thalmor find Talos worshipers, and detain them.

 

You cannot set aside the broken promises, and the betrayal and arrest of Ulfric by the Empire; nor the fact that Torygg knew and "acquiesced" to it. You cannot disregard the Nordic Tradition that allows a jarl to challenge the High King nor Sybyll Stentor's (since she is a "credible" source in your world) affirmation that Ulfric had the right. Nor the fact that to a Nord, the Thuum is a legitimate skill to be used in battle.

Ulric was betrayed by Jarl Igmund, not The Empire. Jarl Igmund worked on his own, and promised Ulfric something The Empire did not agree to, the only betrayal came from Igmund.

 

Except "tradition" in meaningless if it hasn't been used legally in ages, which, as far as we know, the challenge has not.

 

You cannot brush aside the fact that the Dunmer were given...no strings attached...the Grey Quarter; nor the fact that this was one hundred fifty years ago (long before Ulfric was born); nor the fact that they came as penniless refugees who were, in fact, slavers. You cannot diminish the fact that the Dunmer are racially "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Nor the implication that living in the Grey Quarter might very well be a choice that they willingly make--it gives them something to complain about, if nothing else.

Actually

-Many Dunmer did not leave Morrowind penniless.

-Slavery had been outlawed by the King of Morrowind before Red Mountain blew.

-According to The Dunmer the grey quarter used to be a lot better, it wasn't until recently that it got bad.

 

Also while the Dunmer may be "clannish" and "distrustful" of other races, SO ARE THE NORDS, and you can't ignore that is a factor also.

 

You cannot sweep aside the fact that nowhere in the game does Ulfric or Galmor or anyone outside the rank and file of Stormcloak chain of command make any statements that are racially motivated nor does Ulfric issue or support any laws, decrees, edicts that are objectively racial in nature nor is there any evidence that he actively supports any such.

The refusal to go to the grey quarter to see the poverty the Dunmer live in, and the refusal to help Non-Nord caravans that get attacked, while heresy, shows that he very well might.

 

Also I doubt Hitler thought of himself, or the laws he passed, as being discriminatory either.

 

You cannot dismiss the fact that, the Empire cannot even protect its citizens...or perhaps, it's just that it will not...from the depredations of a foreign power.

Except the fact that The Empire had been marginalizing The Thalmor's presence as much as possible, shows that they do care about protecting their people as much as they can.

 

You cannot pooh-pooh Ulfric's and/or the Stormcloak desire for Independence from an exploitative and stagnate Empire that has no or no longer has) legitimate claim to suzerainty over Skyrim.

I would love to see where the Empire lost its legitimacy to Skyrim.

[cherom]

At certain point in game, you come across a document that basically describes Ulfric as a key tool in a certain plan which does not benefit the Empire or the Stormcloaks at all.

 

I'd go with the empire because they are open minded and they do not discriminate other races. (Unlike Aldmeri Dominion, Stormcloaks) and they are the best choice to unite humanity & other races wishing to stand out against against thalmor threat which will come around eventually.

[sajuukkhar9000]

At certain point in game, you come across a document that basically describes Ulfric as a key tool in a certain plan which does not benefit the Empire or the Stormcloaks at all.

 

I'd go with the empire because they are open minded and they do not discriminate other races. (Unlike Aldmeri Dominion, Stormcloaks) and they are the best choice to unite humanity & other races wishing to stand out against against thalmor threat which will come around eventually.

The Empire also has a habit of having Shezzarines show up when they need them, and winning things for them.

 

Pelinal traveled through time itself to help Alessia kill the elves. I wouldn't be surprised if The Empire gets another Shezzarine during the next war.

Edited July 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[fraquar]

All I know is that in my last play through I was on the chopping block because of the Empire and mere minutes after leaving Helgen and heading towards Falkreath I was accosted by about 6 more Imperial soldiers. Not once in any playthough have I ever been accosted by the Stormcloaks.

 

The Empire sure has a funny way of showing me they are the best option, since that option is useless to me if I'm DEAD!!!!!

[sajuukkhar9000]

In the Empire's defense, you were crossing the border illegally at the beginning of the game. Edited July 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[fraquar]

In the Empire's defense, you were crossing the border illegally at the beginning of the game.

 

I'm useless to the Empire dead, so I might as well live and either be neutral or fight for the Stormcloaks - I don't even have to know the Empire/Stormcloak scenario to make that simple distinction.

[Kraeten]

It's telling that you consider the presumption of innocence to be a lofty approach. But then many Imperial apologists seem to share this view. Along with the idea that people being led off to torture and execution is an acceptable price to pay to mollify the Thalmor and bolster a static, disingenuous, timid, and placatory Empire.

 

Spare me, along with the rest of the forum your rhetoric. It's unwanted, and uncalled for. This thread wasn't made for you to hop onto your pulpit/soapbox. Now, the reason I don't presume anyone's innocence in this case is because unlike the real world this game doesn't offer the player the ability to thoroughly investigate the civil war and the motivations behind its most influential leaders. I simply make do with what's available. And what is available, would lead me to believe that Ulfric is a self obsessed, and grasping leader. A man who isn't genuine in his desire to protect Skyrim's traditions, the very things the civil war is being fought over in the first place. The Nords should be angry about the White Gold Concordant, but turning that aggression against their brothers is just what the Dominion wants.

 

It is no surprise that you see a dearth of objective evidence. But that's only because you're looking or listening to isolated NPC's and hearsay and rejecting those POVs that don't support what you've already decided. The dark elf on the way to Windhelm to Join the Stormcloaks be cause "Ulfric has the right of it" is just as believable and anything Brunwuff or Sybill Stentor has to say. Maybe moreso because he's not identifiably attached to any particular faction.

 

I've encountered plenty of Dark elves in my travels, I've never come across one journeying to Windhelm to join Ulfric's rebellion. Even if I had, I'd consider the fellow a fool as Ulfric cares very little for foreigners.

 

To truly understand...to find an objective perspective...you cannot dismiss the WGC and the way that the Empire caved to the AD.

 

I don't dismiss it, I just don't presume to know completely if it was necessary or not. AS YOU MOST CERTAINLY DO.

 

You cannot dismiss the 30 years that have gone by with no significant movement on the part of the Empire to fulfill it assurances of rebuilding and re-arming.

 

We can't know whether the Empire has failed to rebuild. You want to carry the standard of objectivity? That means you have to bear the weight, and you're failing right now.

 

Or that, in fact, by allowing Thalmor patrols in Skyrim and Cyrodiil, the Empire has given up a critical military advantage.

 

That is a heavy price to pay, certainly. The price Cyrodiil would have paid if the war had continued on its own soil would have been just as heavy.

 

You cannot set aside the broken promises, and the betrayal and arrest of Ulfric by the Empire; nor the fact that Torygg knew and "acquiesced" to it.

 

Ulfric wouldn't have been arrested if he had honored the White Gold Concordant. Instead he CHOSE to disobey the law. Ulfric isn't bereft of responsibility.

 

You cannot disregard the Nordic Tradition that allows a jarl to challenge the High King nor Sybyll Stentor's (since she is a "credible" source in your world) affirmation that Ulfric had the right. Nor the fact that to a Nord, the Thuum is a legitimate skill to be used in battle.

 

Ulfric had the right to challenge Torygg, that doesn't mean he should've exercised it. Young and foolish Torygg may have been, but he was still the lawful King and a brave one too. Perhaps in later years he could have become the kind of King Ulfric expected him to be. We'll never know.

 

You cannot brush aside the fact that the Dunmer were given...no strings attached...the Grey Quarter; nor the fact that this was one hundred fifty years ago (long before Ulfric was born); nor the fact that they came as penniless refugees who were, in fact, slavers.

 

The Dunmer have a ugly history, that doesn't mean we should hold Skyrim's Dunmer population responsible. They're not the same people their ancestors were.

 

You cannot diminish the fact that the Dunmer are racially "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Nor the implication that living in the Grey Quarter might very well be a choice that they willingly make--it gives them something to complain about, if nothing else.

 

Clannish and distrustful, yet the worst they appear as in Skyrim is disgruntled by their sorry lot in Windhelm. There are other Dunmer outside of Windhelm as well who hardly live up to the descriptions their ancestors carried.

 

You cannot sweep aside the fact that nowhere in the game does Ulfric or Galmor or anyone outside the rank and file of Stormcloak chain of command make any statements that are racially motivated nor does Ulfric issue or support any laws, decrees, edicts that are objectively racial in nature nor is there any evidence that he actively supports any such.

 

Ulfric forbids the Argonians from entering the city proper, that isn't racially motivated? That he doesn't bother policing the gray quarter isn't racially motivated? You don't think its racially motivated that he allows the argonians to be exploited as dock workers? Ulfric's apathy towards foreigners is a problem.

 

You cannot dismiss the fact that, the Empire cannot even protect its citizens...or perhaps, it's just that it will not...from the depredations of a foreign power.

 

So long as the Empire chooses to honor the White Gold Concordant, the Thalmor will have the right to hunt Talos worshippers. And to that, I say good luck. Tamriel is a big place. The only reason why we see such a concentrated presence of Thalmor in Skyrim, is because of Ulfric.

 

You cannot pooh-pooh Ulfric's and/or the Stormcloak desire for Independence from an exploitative and stagnate Empire that has no or no longer has) legitimate claim to suzerainty over Skyrim.

 

When they choose to turn their swords first against their rightful king and kinsmen, before turning them against their Thalmor oppressors, why shouldn't I criticize their wasteful rebellion?

 

All these things (and more) are just pieces of the puzzle; parts of the bigger picture. They all fit together. In fact, by themselves they mean nothing...nothing. If you pick up one piece you cannot know what its importance is. You cannot see how it fits into the larger scheme of things. The problem comes when you try to put the pieces together and, not fining a proper fit, you either force a fit--through speculation and wishful thinking--or you go back to a previous piece hoping that maybe this time it will fit.

 

That's the definition of irrationality, if not insanity--doing/saying the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

 

And I suspect, for those too lazy to work their way through the puzzle, the pieces need never fit.

 

You want to share definitions? Here's one for you. Delusional. A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. In this case, you delusionally believe you see the bigger picture in its entirety. You believe you possess all the pieces to the puzzle. No one has all the pieces to this puzzle. That's because the developer's didn't provide them all. We don't get to see firsthand the duel between Ulfric and Torygg. We didn't get to see how Cyrodiil is or isn't recovering from the Great War. We didn't see how Ulfric's predecessor treated the refugees. What we do see, is a glimpse at a very specific time in Skyrim's history, and it's one we can pretend to influence....until the next Elder Scrolls installment is released and our character is conveniently written out of the overarching history of Tamriel.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Kraeten

[RighthandofSithis]

At certain point in game, you come across a document that basically describes Ulfric as a key tool in a certain plan which does not benefit the Empire or the Stormcloaks at all.

 

I'd go with the empire because they are open minded and they do not discriminate other races. (Unlike Aldmeri Dominion, Stormcloaks) and they are the best choice to unite humanity & other races wishing to stand out against against thalmor threat which will come around eventually.

The Empire also has a habit of having Shezzarines show up when they need them, and winning things for them.

 

Pelinal traveled through time itself to help Alessia kill the elves. I wouldn't be surprised if The Empire gets another Shezzarine during the next war.

 

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the arcane nature of the Elder Scrolls universe (as you seem to be [even though I disagree with some of the tings you have said]), I'm pretty sure Shezzarines are champions of men, not the champions of the Empire. In fact, considering they are sent by (or are avatars of) Shor, that would lead one to conclude that they have a strong Nordic origin, instead of Cyrodiilic. Pelinal, from my research, was the only Shezzarine (of the First Era) that did not follow the Nordic religion.

 

Furthermore, I am interested in the possibility that the Dragonborn is a Shezzarine. While yes, a Dragonborn is granted power by Akatosh, Wulfharth was a Dragonborn and a well known Shezzarine.

Edited July 8, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[sajuukkhar9000]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the arcane nature of the Elder Scrolls universe (as you seem to be [even though I disagree with some of the tings you have said]), I'm pretty sure Shezzarines are champions of men, not the champions of the Empire. In fact, considering they are sent by (or are avatars of) Shor, that would lead one to conclude that they have a strong Nordic origin, instead of Cyrodiilic. Pelinal, from my research, was the only Shezzarine (of the First Era) that did not follow the Nordic religion.

Shezzarines are avatars of Lorkhan yes.

 

The founders of each of the empires, Alessia, Reman, and Tiber, were Shezzarines, thus The Empire is the Empire of the Shezzarines, and of Lorkhan.

 

 

Or did you forget the pact Alessa made with Lorkhan, and how Lorkhan put her soul into the Amulet of Kings, and gave man the fires, as proof of their divine covenant?

 

And did you forget how Martin sacrificed himself, to become Lorkhan, and how he transformed into the great statue that sits in the temple of the One, an eternal reminder to that sacred oath?

 

Lorkhan, and his other half Akatosh, have been defending The Empire from the Daedra, and the elves, from the beginning.

Edited July 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[fraquar]

This Empire is a far cry from the Empire of Martin's time. This Empire needs an enema.