StormHammer81 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) People who argue in favor of the Empire give me the impression of two things... First, that they are trying to stay loyal to the Empire from Oblivion that no longer exists. Second, that they believe a rebel is an evil force like the Confederates, instead of a good force like the George Washington's Continental Army. Well, that's your opinion. People who are for destroying the Empire give me just one impression, they share the same overall goal as the Thalmor. We're not trying to stay loyal, we are loyal to the Empire of Talos. Not Titus Mede II. You can take the oath after he resigns should you choose to. And it's STILL the Empire of Talos, no matter who rules it. Doesn't mean they're the Septims, no, but we do have the Dragonborn now and TM2 is on his way out. The Stormcloaks aren't necessarily evil but I know Ulfric is. Good and evil are a point of view. I see the Empire doing more Good in the long run once we get the "child" over in Windhelm to stop throwing a tantrum because thing don't always go his way. The Stormcloaks are fighting for freedom from oppression, which more fits the revolution than the civil war. People who use Ulfric as a scape goat do not understand the politics going on... Mainly, the ban of Talos, which is obviously oppressing the people. No they're not! Geez. They're fighting to make Ulfric High King and also to make Talos worship Official again. Means nothing if people don't actually believe in him though. Stormcloaks are NOT fighting for a more Democratic system of Government. They want the same Government and everyone else in Skyrim to live and do things THEIR way. Which in the end is just as intrusive as the Thalmor. Stormcloaks are a souce of OPPRESSION themselves, like how they "oppress" non-Nords. Oooooopression uwww. Are you a lefty? IDC Just curious. The fact that the Empire surrendered to the Thalmor and drew up a treaty that banned Talos what just cause for rebellion. Not necessarily. Hehehe the fact the Empire surrendered did lead to a rebellion, sure. But what most people don't see is the surrender wasn't really a surrender. It was and wasn't that big of a deal. Doing this gave the Empire breathing room. This was Titus Mede II's decision and I don't really support it however, TM2 let the Thalmor think he was beaten before the Battle of the Red Ring. And he doesn't believe in Talos, so in his mind, this was a possible bargaining chip for rebuilding and getting the upper hand against a relentlessly fanatical enemy. I think he should have stood with Hammerfell though. But that's politics and those politics will follow TM2 to the grave. If anything, in order to be and stay an Imperial, you have to be educated into what's really going on and you must know the facts. Edited July 9, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 First point you made... People are not destroying the Empire, it's already destroyed. The Empire of Talos? Seriously? Second point... Haven't you ever seen Braveheart? Freeing your country from oppression doesn't always involve a new form of government. The fight for freedom could simply refer to religious freedom under a new king and Skyrim becoming an independent nation, free from the Thalmor. Absolute freedom is rare, and something that not even Americans gained... remember the slaves? Third point... You've twisted the storyline to serve yourself, but that is not what happened. What actually happened is the Thalmor took the capital and forced the treaty with the threat of death. According to all that we know from history, that is a win and Cyrodil became a province of the Thalmor. AKA: Checkmate. And I'm sure you've argued this over and over... Every time, making yourself feel more and more correct, but that won't make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 No don't even go there. You've probably never had someone disagree with you on this I can tell. You believe what you want to but everything I 've said is factual and is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Good, I'll agree to disagree. I didn't really want to go this far anyways. Kind of pointless since it is all fictional... The story can be whatever we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 You're serving yourself right now because you don't like the polling data. That's selfish. Which in itself indicates you care more about forcing people to think like you than actually letting them interrpret things as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Very well then... Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Poll data doesn't always speak the truth. Anyways... Here's a good example of me serving myself... If I did ever play as an Imperial, my justification for completing the dark brotherhood would be to make the Empire stronger... It's just a story. I rather argue about the real world. But the Stormcloaks are the good guys... :laugh: Really though, good and evil are all just a point of view. For example, the Stormcloaks definitely aren't helping the Thalmor, so are not good to them. Or... maybe they are? I've heard the Thalmor brought the dragons back to keep the war going. Anyways, the story is getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 No, completely different You're right. What you said was completely different from the situation at hand. Rogvir let a murderer, terrorist and thug escape justice. So objective, I'm jealous. AND Furthermore, if that duel HAD been made public beforehand and under Nord tradition, HAD been approved by the Jarls, there would have been no need for the Empire to have done anything. It's all about intention. Yes of course! All revolutions always started at the heels of miles of red tape and months of waiting periods for all the paperwork to go through! Of course it all makes sense! Ulfric just never went through the proper channels! DUHH!! :wallbash: However, Tullius was executing TERRORISTS. George Washington was a terrorist, according to this logic. You should check to see what terms you're using are relative before you assert them as the correct word. A fair trial...oh please. Did Ulfric give Tullius a chance to defend himself in a formal hearing? No. So please, don't try to act as if Ulfric is any better than Tullius. Clearly Ulfric knows time travel. He went forward in time to the end of the Civil War, killed Tullius then went back in time to get captured by Tullius. IT all makes sense! :psyduck: He certainly won't get a fair trial, when he acts like a criminal fleeing the the scene of a crime. If he truly believed in the righteousness of his cause, he'd have stayed. If he was found guilty, he'd still have the chance to die a martyr. Name me one revolutionary who killed a head of state and managed to do anything important after that by staying by the mans body, patiently waiting to be arrested. And its hard to die a martyr when most won't have even known what you tried to do and when those that do know and actually support you would end up having their arguments muddied by doubt as people try to figure out if Ulfric actually did die a martyr or if this guy Galmar just killed him and took his place. People who are for destroying the Empire give me just one impression, they share the same overall goal as the Thalmor. Clearly, the Empire is the only good thing that ever existed in Tamriel and nothing could ever replace it that would be just as good if not better. NIce that you're afraid of change so much that you're willing to support a failing Empire that's just one silent coup away from being the puppet of an Elven Nazi regime. No they're not! Geez. They're fighting to make Ulfric High King and also to make Talos worship Official again. Means nothing if people don't actually believe in him though. Stormcloaks are NOT fighting for a more Democratic system of Government. They want the same Government and everyone else in Skyrim to live and do things THEIR way. Which in the end is just as intrusive as the Thalmor. Stormcloaks are a souce of OPPRESSION themselves, like how they "oppress" non-Nords. Oooooopression uwww. Are you a lefty? IDC Just curious. Derp. The exchange after your post there was just hilarious. It was like two kids going at each other with "STOP TOUCHING MEEE!!!!!!!!" logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) Clearly Ulfric knows time travel. He went forward in time to the end of the Civil War, killed Tullius then went back in time to get captured by Tullius. IT all makes sense! Great job missing the point. When Ulfric had Tullius at his mercy, did he choose to the higher road? Did he give the general the trial he himself had been denied? No, he took the same road. Surely you're not so narrow minded that you can't see that? Name me one revolutionary who killed a head of state and managed to do anything important after that by staying by the mans body, patiently waiting to be arrested. My point still stands. When Ulfric fled, he completely undermined whatever righteousness he could have claimed in killing Torygg. And its hard to die a martyr when most won't have even known what you tried to do and when those that do know and actually support you would end up having their arguments muddied by doubt as people try to figure out if Ulfric actually did die a martyr or if this guy Galmar just killed him and took his place. Oh, so you think Ulfric just slipped away from Windhelm without telling his men he was heading to Solitude to confront the King? How stupid do you think he is exactly? I might think he's a self serving coward, but even I don't think he's a complete moron. If Ulfric had enough guile to arrange a quick escape he would have made sure that in the event he failed to return to his men they would know what roughly transpired. Edited July 9, 2012 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) I'd have a hard time seeing anyone being allowed to leave Solitude freely even if it was a completely fair fight and the winner was a 1-armed man with nothing but a candlestick and piss drunk when he killed the king. He killed him in the heart of Empire controlled (military and politcial) Solitude. There was no way anyone is just walking out of Solitude after killing the High King - fair or not. I just don't see the respect for the old ways, Solitude is just to Imperialized. It's the seat of Imperial power in Skyrim. You'd ve asking the Empire to legitimize an enemy and hand power to him - not gonna happen even if the enemy was Mother Theresa. Edited July 9, 2012 by fraquar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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