Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[sukeban]

@mighty zog

 

Quoting from the Thalmor Dossier is beyond played-out. The only thing it proves is that the Thalmor desire a protracted CW in Skyrim, that it doesn't want one side to actually win. Yes, Ulfric began the CW, but that is water under the bridge now. Real-talk, the WORST position that someone can take in Skyrim is that of the pacifist (not joining either side), as this position contributes to a stalemated CW and continued attrition from both sides. The best outcome for Skyrim is for the player to join one side and then win the war swiftly and decisively. That is what the Thalmor fear the most, really; it does not matter for which side this is done (though we can still have our own preferences).

 

@kraeten

 

I. If I were Ulfric, I probably wouldn't have wanted to stick around in post-Torygg Solitude either. Even if some of the Nord residents had recognized his triumph in combat, that does not necessarily hold true for the Legion troops or non-Nords living in the city. Ulfric is not the Dragonborn, even if he does know the Thu'um; I doubt that he could have prevailed in a 1 vs. the entire Solitude Legion + civilian vigilantes melee. If he had been able to, he could likely have both began and ended the CW in one fell swoop. But alas, Ulfric isn't the Dragonborn (which is probably actually a good thing, as I don't fully trust him either).

 

The Empire certainly does like it summary executions, however. Indeed, Imperial "justice" in Skyrim seems to be rather allergic to the concept of a trial. It should be quite obvious that Rogvyr got hardcore scapegoated by the bloodthirsty (yet oh-so "civilized") Solitude mob and an embarrassed Imperial Legion desperate to prove that they were doing "something." We have no idea what the scene was like when Ulfric fled from the city. Ulfric was a powerful Jarl, to bar his way without a very good reason likely wouldn't have been good for poor old Rogvyr. I'd imagine that Rogvyr simply opened the gate for a legitimate Skyrim nobleman, then, when confronted with the true context of Ulfric's flight (and accused of his "crimes"), he concocted some pro-Stormcloak bravado to convince himself that he didn't have to die in vain. Purely my invented scenario, but as provable as any other (as in you can't).

 

II. I'm still a bit unclear as to how Imperial sympathizers rationalize the departure of Hammerfell whilst insisting that Skyrim is somehow a special case. How is Hammerfell's desire "not to lose any territory" any less compelling than Skyrim's desire not to be deprived of their god? I suppose it can come down to a personality disposition, i.e. whether or not you are more of a materialistic person or a spiritual person. Personally, I am agnostic, but I can recognize the validity of Skyrim's desire not to be robbed of Talos. From merely gazing at the newspaper headlines and taking a cursory look at a globe, one can deduce that there are a great many people on this very earth who likely feel the same way. Not saying that I agree with them, but rather pointing out that it animates people, likely more than questions of territorial boundaries (minus perhaps Korea and the Dokdo Islands bwaha).

 

III. And lastly, I am perennially confused by the insistence on the primacy of Imperial and Cyrodiilic concerns over those of any other province or people. Why is it that the Empire's desires are always prioritized over those of anybody else? To a certain extent, I think that this stems from a certain worship of the very concept of "Empire," that people get mesmerized by their unrealistic images of Rome. True story, Rome was not nearly as nice a place as people nowadays make it out to be (unless you were lucky enough to have been born a patrician), and, for this audience, it was absolutely nothing like the Empire in Skyrim (uniforms and names aside).

 

It is true that in Oblivion there are citizens of all different Skyrim races roaming about in Cyrodiil's cities, and it is true that there are volumes to be said for the concept of "citizenship" that is blind to race and religion. But such blindness only seems to prevail when times are good for the Empire, when tolerance is buoyed by peacetime and prosperity. Furthermore, such tolerance is easier to come by in the heartland of the Empire, that region of the Empire that the taxes, raw materials, and soldiers from the other provinces all serve to glorify. Whether it is Washington DC, ancient Rome, or the Imperial City itself, you would be hard-pressed to find folks griping about the largesse that they enjoy from the extraction of wealth from outlying provinces. Indeed, measure the enthusiasm in Texas, Britannia, or Skyrim for subsidizing the lifestyle of those in the Imperial center, likely you would not find much.

 

This is not to say that we should return to the city-state, but rather that overlarge political constellations are bound to create resentment in its peripheries, largely because these regions are likely not benefiting as much from the arrangement as those located at the center. At the very least, these provinces can expect security, a common coinage, and some "civilizing" laws, but the cost/benefit of this relationship turns entirely upon whether or not security becomes despotism, when trade becomes one-sided exploitation, and when civilizing laws begin to ride roughshod over local custom. As empires expand and absorb more people, all with differing customs from those of the imperial center, it becomes nearly impossible to ensure that the relationship is beneficial for all member parties.

 

Which is all by way of my saying that "Empire" can be positive, but it is not inherently so. Empire is a sliding-scale of cost/benefit, a spectrum of give and take. It will always be better for those at its center, but not all people can live there. It is thus necessary to recognize that people can and do get the shaft in this arrangement. And when people feel like they are getting the shaft, it is natural that they might want out.

[Deleted4666244User]

i am going to say this once (maybe one more time) but i do not think that Ulfric has any claim to be high king if the moot (the meeting of the other Jarls) do not give him that claim (by choosing Elisif over the man who killed Torygg.

[DaedalusMachina]

I don't know where you're getting the idea that the White-Gold Concordat was signed out of the simple preservation of Cyrodiil, but the Thalmor were intensely focused on the Imperial City itself. Light forces in Hammerfell were overrun, but the White-Gold Concordat was signed out of fear of total annihilation, which, the Emperor knew, was a guarantee if he continued. Hell, the Thalmor managed to severely damage the White-Gold Tower itself.

 

The whole point of the Civil War is short-sighted, it's two factions going against each-other where the true enemy, the Thalmor, simply sits back and watches. Hell, the Thalmor are more likely to support Ulfric than Tullius, since a divided empire will make it easier for the Thalmor to control, but really, they just want the fighting to continue ad infinitum.

 

Also, between Ulfric and Tullius, only Tullius believes the civil war is a distraction to the true problem, the Thalmor.

[MightyZ0G]

@sukeban it may be played out but does validate my statement that Ulfric's actions after the liberation of Markarth had a damaging effect on Skyrim.

 

virtually every Imperial soldier in Skyrim is a Nord.

the war only kills Nords and weakens Skyrim.

 

although the Thalmor want a protracted war, it does make a very big difference who wins the war.

if the Stormcloaks win then Cyrodiil and Skyrim fight the Thalmor individually (and it makes sense for the Thalmor to attack the severely weakened and divided Skyrim before they can recover enough to defend themselves against a Thalmor invasion.

Ulfric is too proud to beg the Empire for help and after starting the rebellion, murdering the High King (who was a loyal supporter of the Empire) and, as far as the Empire is concerned, probably a suspect behind the assassination of TM2, it is unlikely that he would get any help.

Skyrim will stand and fall alone then Cyrodiil will fall and the Thalmor will have won.

 

Skyrim's only hope after a Stormcloak victory is for the Empire to attack the Thalmor before the Thalmor attack Skyrim.

this would need the Thalmor to miss a huge tactical opportunity and the Empire to attack before they are ready

[Kraeten]

Ulfric was a powerful Jarl, to bar his way without a very good reason likely wouldn't have been good for poor old Rogvyr

 

As a guard, Roggvir had the authority to bar anyone's passage to and from the city and that includes the Jarl of another hold. If you want to make an argument to discredit mine, you may want to put in some more effort. Addressing the supposed purpose of making that argument, I have already stated twice now that my proposition was by no means absolutely true/certain. I am NOT the one standing around claiming to be absolutely right. If you want to scold someone for such narrow minded arrogance, you should be addressing Mac or Imperistan. I apologize for the abrasiveness of this post, but I'm tired of being reminded of something I'm well aware of.

 

II. I'm still a bit unclear as to how Imperial sympathizers rationalize the departure of Hammerfell whilst insisting that Skyrim is somehow a special case. How is Hammerfell's desire "not to lose any territory" any less compelling than Skyrim's desire not to be deprived of their god?

 

Well if you want me to break it down for you, here is the difference. One one hand we have a large scale Aldmeri occupation, on soil you've already bled defending. On other hand, we have the banning of Talos which while it is on paper supposed to be enforced all across the Empire hardly anyone is actually enforcing it. Which puts the enormous task squarely on the shoulders of the Thalmor, and that's a task they simply can't complete.

 

So in short, large scale occupation of Hammerfell is a big deal. The banning of Talos, which is hardly enforced, isn't as big a deal.

 

III. And lastly, I am perennially confused by the insistence on the primacy of Imperial and Cyrodiilic concerns over those of any other province or people.

 

It boils down to this, if you really want to understand it. Cyrodiil bled more than any other province over the course of the Great War. After the battle of the Red Ring there was hardly anything left in Cyrodiil to defend. If the war had continued, and the Dominion had continued fighting Cyrodiil instead of Hammerfell there's no telling if there would even be a Cyrodiil when the war ended. Which means the Empire would truly be over, as by what authority could the Emperor rule over the other provinces when the chief province he ruled from was gone? The Empire of Talos would truly be dead then.

 

To save Cyrodiil, to save the seat of the Empire Titus Mede II chose to sign the White Gold Concordant. The entire Empire would suffer, so that Cyrodiil could recover. Basically, you have to ask yourself this simple question...are you willing to give up some of what you have, to help a suffering friend? Hammerfell simply chose not to.

 

In the case of Skyrim, the situation with Talos was plenty tolerable until Ulfric stirred up trouble with the Markarth incident. All he's ever done is make a bad situation MUCH worse.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Kraeten

[StormHammer81]

@imperistan

 

You have your opinion and that's fine but that's your opinion. Spamming the forum with your previous posts which may or may not even relate to the matter at hand is not going to help. If we're going to start doing that, then I think we Imperials should basically do the same thing. Why don't we stop spamming and let some of these others cats make up their own mind.

 

@sukeban

 

I'm not going to go there again :) I answered several of your questions in a previous post. I mean, we executed Bin Laden without a trial etc... When a citizen OPENLY engages in Terrorism they become an enemy of the state and when that happens technically speaking they are no longer considered citizens.

 

Here's another, when Hammerfell departed the Empire, it was a legitimate conflict of interest between the sovereign leadership in Hammerfell and the Empire. There was no lie, no deception, Hammerfell just told the Empire goodbye. When in Skyrim, it was murder and political intrigue because there were too many issues prior to the death of Torygg where the Jarls were deeply divided. This is another thing which brings suspicion towards Ulfric and the Stormcloak Jarls. Had Torygg stood up and declared independence, there would be no Civil War today or otherwise fighting with the Empire. For example, Tullius did not force Jarl B to do anything on behalf of the Empire, he had to beg him to allow Imperial troops in his city. HOWEVER. That didn't happen this time around because the sovereign King of Skyrim got himself murdered by Ulfric or was killed by Ulfric in a duel under some VERY questionable circumstances in the middle of a politically divided Province. The entirety of Skyrim is not for succession from the Empire. The Empire has every right to protect what's theirs from Thieves and Murderers.

 

@Kraeten

 

Absolutely, every bit of that is correct. I think it's going to take a DLC to get these folks to see the light on some of this stuff. Cause when the Empire does start to fight the Thalmor again in a future DLC, majority of these anti-Imperial arguments will not stand. Thalmor fights Empire ---> End of WGC ---> Talos worship restored ---> We're all done here.

 

I'm thinking the Thalmor let Hammerfell go to focus on the Empire. For a weak military, they seem to have an endless supply of Justicars and soldiers to send into Skyrim. Thalmor have a card they haven't played yet.

 

BTW this is the Final answer to that question, you hit it with a Stinger-Missile:

 

It boils down to this, if you really want to understand it. Cyrodiil bled more than any other province over the course of the Great War. After the battle of the Red Ring there was hardly anything left in Cyrodiil to defend. If the war had continued, and the Dominion had continued fighting Cyrodiil instead of Hammerfell there's no telling if there would even be a Cyrodiil when the war ended. Which means the Empire would truly be over, as by what authority could the Emperor rule over the other provinces when the chief province he ruled from was gone? The Empire of Talos would truly be dead then.

:dance: Edited July 12, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Lisnpuppy]

There is no way I plan to read 52+ pages of this philosophical diatribe. However I think 52 pages is more than enough. People are repeating the same things over and over...linking crap...and geez have none of you people learned to snip or use spoiler tags? Now we get personal insults thrown it.

 

I think we have beat this dead horse enough. I am shutting this one down. If you start another and it ends up like this one I am going to start hitting you people in the nose with virtual newspapers.

 

Closing. Don't like it take it up with the boss.~Lisnpuppy