An independent New Vegas mod.

[kingwilfre16]

Ah, I got the wrong impression - I though you were talking about wholesale redo of the entire area.

 

 

Since we're on the subject, I had this idea about a construction company opening up in Freeside, run by a ghoul (or a super-mutant like Marcus) with a crew of super-mutant workers. His brains and their brawn would be a pretty good way to explain new buildings opening up. This would allow for the semi-destroyed casino's, which would be repaired through them. There would also have to be several requirements before they could rebuld: a new smelting/metal fabrication shop; trade deals with the Crimson Caravan (or alternative) for more exotic elements like fabrics, woodwork, and plastics; and maybe a deal with the BOS for electronics (there would have to be an alternative made for those who chose to destroy the BOS).

 

 

I was also considering what a rebuilt Free/Westside would look like, and what could be realistically added.

1. A police station - The Independent Mojave Militia's main headquarters would be here. It would be a combination police and court building with a small jail underneath. One of the side-quests could be a prisoner escape and/or hostage situation, something that could be solved through violence or dialog options. I was thinking in the side street where the thugs usually spawn and where Joana meets up with Carlitos from the "Bye Bye Love" quest.

2. A bank - it could be called something like New Vegas National, and would have a robbery attempt made via criminals tunneling in through the sewer system.

3. A museum - I'm thinking either a serious location, or maybe a joke version like Sierra Petrovita's Nuka-Cola museum in Girdershade - perhaps both.

4. Water Towers or tanks on top of the buildings - considering that this is a desert, seems like a prudent choice.

5. A gate connecting the Strip to Westside.

6. Better walls around Westside.

7. Guard Shacks at all the gates going into the city.

8. A power plant - I was thinking of it being built and operated badly, with toxic sludge leaking into the sewer system. The local rat population mutates even further from this and decides to journey to the surface, with all the city dwellers basically playing whack-a-rat. With the rats dead, the player will have the option of shutting it down (no karma change, just a ton of money lost); continuing to let it run (bad karma and the city dwellers become sick); increase the output further (really bad karma and fills the air with radiated particles); fix the plant (good karma and let's the city have more electricity); and finally fix and optimize the power plant (great karma, electricity, and some undetermined bonus).

 

 

I'm not against sandcrete structures, I just don't know if they should be in the city proper - they do tend to stick out a bit.

 

 

Well, the scripting might not seem a big deal to you, but I have a lot of trouble with it so my perception is a bit skewed. I sincerely hope it will be easier that it sounds (to me).

 

 

Hey, nobody's perfect. :biggrin:

nobody's perfect, but your ideas are win. The plant optimization should also apply to hoover dam.

[devinpatterson]

Wanted to touch base on two of the story lines by Lucia & Darkus, before I head out, since I'v been slammed this week (crazy at work). Not sure how much I'll be able to post, but I'll finish up tomorrow (have the whole weekend off, hoping to get at least 3 or 4 hours of modding in).

 

The NCR has withdrawn from the mojave, they maintain a base at Hoover Dam and the Mojave Checkpoint (sandcrete style), and are in the process of removing everything from McCarren, they have a garrison at the Crimson Caravan station in the form of providing military support to ensure trade gets where it needs to be.

My initial idea is the NCR presence is going to be determined by the players choice. continue the treaty (NCR prescence remains unchanged), letter of withdrawel (NCR exits most locations, but not the outpost & possibly some outlying areas). Declaration of war, pretty much the same as the previous entry (NCR exits). This is important so I can set the character of multiple locations (strip, dam, McCaran etc), especially in re: to NCR. I know it's more difficult when there are at least two (really 3) large scale changes to the Mojave, but I think it's very important for the player to have that choice, and it's such a game changer to the environment that I woudlnt' want to scrap it.

 

BTW interesting idea about the Crimson Caravan/garrison. No problem with the treaty, might be do-able with the withdrawel and as you might imagine, untenable with war. Makes a lot of sense too considering the tendrils the Crimson Caravan has in the NCR gov, but possibly altered by the ending of Cass's quest (in which knowledge of the plot is used by the NCR to essentially blackmail the Crimson Caravan to behave).

 

The president has been impeached and General Oliver has resigned,

I think that one should probably be determined/fallout of the players choice. If s/he goes with the treaty, they (NCR) can spin this as a win, supporting the free trade zone of NV via the grand efforts and ideals of the republic etc. The withdrawel & war though, could probably result in the impeachment & resignation.

 

re: act 1, it's important to portray the securitrons going beserk as a unintended result of House's hack. House doesn't want to destroy the strip, kill NV or NCR citizens etc. He's spent 3 or 4 lifetimes building it up into the jewel of the Mojave. He also needs those caps for his master plan, and slaughtering your customers is bad for business.

 

in re: to a war torn NV, I'm not really sure that's essential to the story per se. I understand your desire for a visual impact, but is it really intricate to the plot?

[devinpatterson]

The Strip and Hoover Dam are under the total control of the Securitrons; the Dam is especially of great strategic importance and provides power to The Strip - no way it gets left in the hands of the NCR (control over the Dam is the reason two wars have been fought there already).

I believe that should be left to teh player choice; continuing the NV treaty will leave the dam as is as far as NCR presence, but will result in a heavy Securitron occupation. A letter of withdrawal or declaration of war, will give you the scenario (in re: to hoover) you describe above, save for the outpost. Taking that is, as we discussed in this post #434 an act of war.

 

The Mojave Outpost (as the major entry into the Mojave from NCR territory) should also be under Securitron control, with a possible dual control setup (kind of like how the Strip is now) if an agreement is reached with the NCR, like a DMZ of sorts.

On the other hand a dual setup as you describe above would make sense if your continuing the NV treaty, and would be a small concession for the NCR to pay considering they are getting a sweet deal via the treaty. I think in the case of the withdrawal, that's going to be a pretty tough sell. They are pretty pissed at the player, so there would probably have to be some carrot or stick to to get them to agree. It would have to be done with some serious skill to get a concession via the latter, without everything going to hell in a hand basket, much less working together for any length of time with such deep resentment held by the troops of the NCR's garrison.

 

But that's the fun part, the repercussions and possibilities resulting from the players choices.

 

we had the idea (a while ago) that some bases would remain under control of NCR deserters - with some being able to be persuaded into joining the Independent Mojave Militia (a new group that can be built up to fill in the vacuum created by the now departed NCR presence and limited amount of securitrons); and some becoming raiders that need to be dealt with.

I don't really see a lot of NCR deserters, I suspect most of the NCR military wants to get home as ASAP. But as far as militia I think that's going to have to come into play in a later time frame.

 

Two weeks is a good time lapse for the mod beginning - that’s what we were kicking around here before (a time frame of at least a week and no longer than a month). There are no set trade or peace agreements in place, but the NCR is still getting supplied with power (for now).

Yeah, 2 weeks is a good time period. In re: to trade or peace agreements, that does come into play almost immediately. In the vanilla game, it's issued by House (via the courier) right at the end of the base game. This help me to set the new environments, but also plays along with the lore. And NCR presence will depend on the players choice.

 

Legion troops continue to harass the Mojave, but do so only in limited numbers and are more like the raiders rather than organized groups.

Sure we can have them be some what disorganized for a while, and/or use harassment/small group guerrilla tactics until the bigger Legion story lines come into play.

 

Like in Broken Steel, the companions have been fired to their default or new locations at the beginning of the mod loading up. The player should start in the Lucky 38, if for no other reason that it’s the seat of power for the leader of New Vegas, specifically in the Penthouse Suite.

Sounds good

 

The Courier is forced to defend himself against the rampaging securitrons, the fight made a lot easier since they are unable to use their advanced weaponry or repair abilities while bezerk; they will also be killing each other as well as well as attacking the player.

I'm not sure you want to do that in re: to game balance simply because the player is (most likely) very high level, so with those handicaps (no adv weapons, attacking each other) it's going to be severely under powered for the player. On the other hand I can see where your going in re: to making them completely dysfunctional from some seriously defunct programming. We can't add them to different factions, but we can set them as frenzied and that should do the trick for a "kill anything that moves" effect.

 

 

OK gotta jet, more tomorrow

[darkus37]

I think I see where the disconnect is from my end - I am extrapolating based off what my Courier did in my playthrough; where taking control of an independent New Vegas is more than just a simple change of CEO's. Despite my assumption, I think you could agree that whatever treaties were in effect while Mr. House was in control are basically null and void once he had been deposed - one of the drawbacks of a totalitarian dictatorship (for example, making a trade agreement with the U.S.S.R. would not be worth the paper it was printed on a second after the country fell apart). That's not to say they can't be re-signed right away with the new parties involved, but the immediate aftermath would not make the NCR particularly benevolent to the Courier. People can be quite spiteful when hurt, which would be an understandable reaction in the NCR's case, with having what was to be their triumphant moment snatched away at the last minute. Sabotaging the dam or redirecting power from New Vegas would not be an unbelievable reaction, particularly if used as a bargaining tool - for example: the NCR will continue to supply New Vegas with electricity (and water, don't forget about Camp Golf!) in return for a larger cut of the profits and an increased NCR presence on the Strip - or the Casino's might have to go dark for a couple of weeks while the dam is being "repaired".

 

Mr. House was forced to make a deal with NCR out of necessity - the legion was coming and the NCR was encroaching as well - with a limited amount of un-upgraded securitrons and tribals as his army, he chose to make a deal with the lesser of two evils. This is a different situation as the Courier would be operating from a position of strength, a securitron army behind him - besides, if I remember correctly, choosing the Yes Man option basically wipes out the NCR presence at the Dam anyway, so it's sort of a moot point. If the Courier should decide to eventually let the NCR have dual control, that's a different story - but in the immediate aftermath, the securitrons should be the only ones there. Same with the Mojave Outpost - there doesn't have to be open warfare, but the Securitrons should be there as a visible deterrent against more NCR forces "accidentally" crossing over back into the Mojave.

 

As for deserters, I'm not talking about a wholesale rats-leaving-a-sinking-ship situation; I meant isolated pockets - for example, the sharecroppers worked hard to build their farms and make new homes; with the NCR leaving, they might decide to stick around and protect what they felt was theirs. Another example could be Camp Forlorn Hope - after all the death and destruction, being told to just leave it all and return with their tail between their legs might make some soldiers pretty ticked off, perhaps even angry enough to rebel.

 

Sounds good about the frenzied securitrons - that is where I was going with it.

[devinpatterson]

I think you could agree that whatever treaties were in effect while Mr. House was in control are basically null and void once he had been deposed

The player has the *option* to choose whether to maintain the Treaty or go a different direction (letter of withdrawal, deceleration of war).

 

but the immediate aftermath would not make the NCR particularly benevolent to the Courier.....Sabotaging the dam or redirecting power from New Vegas would not be an unbelievable reaction,

Which is why continuing the treaty would go a long way toward mending fences. Nor would they be likely to sabotage the dam since 95% of the power and water under the treaty goes to the NCR.

 

choosing the Yes Man option basically wipes out the NCR presence at the Dam anyway, so it's sort of a moot point. If the Courier should decide to eventually let the NCR have dual control, that's a different story - but in the immediate aftermath, the securitrons should be the only ones there.

No, I played the Yesman option, the independent ending, it doesn't wipe out NCR presence. You have the option to battle the rangers, or face them down (if you skill check is high enough). Even if you issue a letter of withdrawal it takes time for the NCR to vacate. Choosing to continue the treaty will result in a similar setup in hoover, as the strip is in the vanilla game, with both factions working side by side at the dam. A letter of withdrawal will result in the NCR leaving Hoover in small convoys. A declaration of war will result in open warfare on the NCR forces at the dam.

 

Same with the Mojave Outpost - there doesn't have to be open warfare, but the Securitrons should be there as a visible deterrent against more NCR forces "accidentally" crossing over back into the Mojave.

No, the outpost is the NCR's territory previous to, and during the NV treaty. It's not mentioned in the letter of withdrawal, for that reason. But we've gone over this before, Is there a pressing reason that you need those two conditions for the mod? I'd rather not burn more time arguing over a point that's already been established quite a while back in the thread.

 

However I can put a securitron presence there if the player continues the treaty, keep it as is if it's the withdrawal, and make them hostile if war is declared.

 

I meant isolated pockets - for example, the sharecroppers worked hard to build their farms and make new homes; with the NCR leaving, they might decide to stick around and protect what they felt was theirs.

Sure, isolated pockets are reasonable.

 

Another example could be Camp Forlorn Hope - after all the death and destruction, being told to just leave it all and return with their tail between their legs might make some soldiers pretty ticked off, perhaps even angry enough to rebel.

I suspect the troopers won't shed a tear leaving Camp Forlorn Hope, they don't seem to give the impression they enjoy being there.

[kingwilfre16]

 

I think you could agree that whatever treaties were in effect while Mr. House was in control are basically null and void once he had been deposed

The player has the *option* to choose whether to maintain the Treaty or go a different direction (letter of withdrawal, deceleration of war).

 

but the immediate aftermath would not make the NCR particularly benevolent to the Courier.....Sabotaging the dam or redirecting power from New Vegas would not be an unbelievable reaction,

Which is why continuing the treaty would go a long way toward mending fences. Nor would they be likely to sabotage the dam since 95% of the power and water under the treaty goes to the NCR.

 

choosing the Yes Man option basically wipes out the NCR presence at the Dam anyway, so it's sort of a moot point. If the Courier should decide to eventually let the NCR have dual control, that's a different story - but in the immediate aftermath, the securitrons should be the only ones there.

No, I played the Yesman option, the independent ending, it doesn't wipe out NCR presence. You have the option to battle the rangers, or face them down (if you skill check is high enough). Even if you issue a letter of withdrawal it takes time for the NCR to vacate. Choosing to continue the treaty will result in a similar setup in hoover, as the strip is in the vanilla game, with both factions working side by side at the dam. A letter of withdrawal will result in the NCR leaving Hoover in small convoys. A declaration of war will result in open warfare on the NCR forces at the dam.

 

Same with the Mojave Outpost - there doesn't have to be open warfare, but the Securitrons should be there as a visible deterrent against more NCR forces "accidentally" crossing over back into the Mojave.

No, the outpost is the NCR's territory previous to, and during the NV treaty. It's not mentioned in the letter of withdrawal, for that reason. But we've gone over this before, Is there a pressing reason that you need those two conditions for the mod? I'd rather not burn more time arguing over a point that's already been established quite a while back in the thread.

 

However I can put a securitron presence there if the player continues the treaty, keep it as is if it's the withdrawal, and make them hostile if war is declared.

 

I meant isolated pockets - for example, the sharecroppers worked hard to build their farms and make new homes; with the NCR leaving, they might decide to stick around and protect what they felt was theirs.

Sure, isolated pockets are reasonable.

 

Another example could be Camp Forlorn Hope - after all the death and destruction, being told to just leave it all and return with their tail between their legs might make some soldiers pretty ticked off, perhaps even angry enough to rebel.

I suspect the troopers won't shed a tear leaving Camp Forlorn Hope, they don't seem to give the impression they enjoy being there.

 

What about turning the ranger monument into a giant securitrons as a finger to the ncr

[darkus37]

Alright, alright - I get the point: this particular dead horse has been beaten enough - but I will leave it with this: having such vitally important areas remain in the hands of a possible enemy doesn't seem very smart to me; even having it under an ally's control would make me nervous. The way I see it, it would be like having all the infrastructure (power plants, water treatment facilties, etc) and border control in the U.S. under Canadian control - I'm sure that nothing bad will happen and they seem pretty levelheaded in whole - but even if hostilities would never break out between the two, the Canadians would have the advantage in any negotiations in the future. I'll guess I'll have to settle for dual control if the Courier has good enough rep with the NCR.

OK, so would the treaty re-signing have already taken place, or would it be a playable event, perhaps with dialog choices that have skill based requirements? For example: The Courier is speaking with the NCR Ambassador who want's things to remain the same as they were under House's rule. With a high enough speech, charisma, and/or luck skill - the player can have the NCR MP's removed or get a better deal with the Crimson Caravan for reconstruction materials (if Heartache by the Numbers was completed with the Caravan falling under NCR control).

Gotcha, makes sense. How will the mod determine if the Letter of Withdrawal was given? If it did happen, it would have been done right after the battle, right? The two week jump would make doing this a complication unless the mod starts right after the battle, allows you to make a decision, and then jumps to two weeks later.

 

Well, I meant small pockets of holdouts - not a conflict for every square inch under NCR control. I don't think there should be more than 3-5 of these in total, deserters included.

 

Alright, Forlorn Hope was a bad example - maybe Camp Golf would be a better one: it had a squad that the Courier could train to be really great soldiers; and in combination with dealing with Hanlon so that he keeps his reputation intact - they may decide to switch sides. I'm sure a suitable location could be found for the deserters - embittered from losing friends fighting against the Legion and then being told that their sacrifice was for nothing... they may decide to desert - seems plausible to me.

 

@kingwilfre16 - from my perspective, a memorial is a must; but destroying the one at the Mojave Outpost would just anger the NCR. I thought about maybe having a similar-sized securitron statue that was actually a Liberty Prime-like sentry unit, but that was a little much.

[Devilman1975]

Regarding the option to declare war on the NCR, I think that it would be considered a bone headed move on the player's part. I doubt that declaring war against the NCR would have any place in the House version of the mod as it would go against his grand plans for Vegas. The only group that would benefit from a conflict with the NCR is Caesar's Legion.

 

If the player chooses to go to war with the NCR then there should be significant consequences such as the Strip being empty of tourists and no income for the player to set up the Mojave militia and other restoration efforts. I know that it would be easy for player's to give themselves an infinitive number of caps through console commands but I would think it should be possible to have militia building and restoration efforts to be removed for players who choose this particular path. Also a war with NCR will certainly see a trade embargo against New Vegas and potentially drive many residents to cannibalism if the likes of Heck Gunderson stop sending brahmin meat. In this scenario I can even imagine the Vegas families accusing the player of damaging the economy of New Vegas with a pointless war and would certainly plot to have the player removed.

[darkus37]

Not being allies is not the same thing as being enemies, the reverse is true as well. I wasn't talking about declaring a war against the NCR, just telling them to play in their own backyard and to stay out of this one. A trade embargo wouldn't make too much sense since it's the Mojave that is supplying the NCR with water and power - not the other way around. I do get what you're saying though.

 

I see the situation between the NCR and Independent Mojave as being sort of like a historical replay of the Revolutionary War, where the colonies rebelled against the British and declared themselves to be a new country, and the British being forced to leave. Not even 30 years later, there was the war of 1812 (this could be the attack by General Oliver that LuciaofArroyo suggested) which was also beaten back. But, eventually, the two countries mended their fences and became allies and even friends.

 

Honestly, I think the best long term benefit for both sides would be for the IM to eventually join the NCR as an equal partner, not like in the NCR ending which is basically annexation. That is, of course, my perspective.

[kingwilfre16]

the ranger unification monument is that the desert rangers join the ncr in return for their protection of the Mojave from the legion, with independence the ncr failed their side of the treaty, so the desert rangers would most likely -pardon the pun- desert. With the ncr's defeat it would be possible desert rangers roam the wastes, and some bitter with the ncr breaking their promise would want to see the statue destroyed due to it being nothing but a broken promise