Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[imperistan]

A long shot? Not really. By crushing Ulfric the Empire not only removes a dangerous revolutionary but also makes a powerful statement "We're not dead yet". After the second Great War, it's anybody's guess.

 

Or it just shows that even a dying giant can still knockdown a house.

 

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I would rather die free than live a slave. No one should have to give up their freedom just so that they don't have to die when they've done no wrong other than worship a particular god, something that is inherently benign.

 

Even if we take the reality of gods in the TES universe and how the Thalmor see the issue, they still have no right to say one way or the other who gets worshiped. For one, he isn't their god to worship. No one is forcing them to worship him, and their own faiths are not shattered by Talos' ascension from man to god. They can't possibly be because Talos' ascension did not affect the eight in such a way that they were fundamentally changed (as far as I know anyway. I haven't seen anywhere that says different) and as such change the way they were going to have to treat the original Aedra.

 

No the Thalmor only take offense to the idea of Talos, not to him actually doing anything to Aedra. That a man could become a god, a man who destroyed them once and took their home as a prize for his conquering. And now they are acting on this offense in the only way they possibly can, by attacking the rest of mankind.

 

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That is only because there is no one dominant race.

 

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Skyrim's population is also mainly bandits. In-game representation =/= lore. (and for that matter how things would look realistically. Skyrim in-game is about as deep as a puddle as far as showing how the people of Skyrim are)

 

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Again, in-game is not the same as a realistic representation. Most books you see in the game are there to fill up space, not to serve as an indication of anything about the person its tagged to belong to.

 

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Natural affinity isn't the same as being extremely powerful. An affinity is the difference between being able to make a small spark and being able to throw a small, weak, fireball after the same amount of education, not the difference between not even knowing what magic is and tearing apart the fabric of reality.

 

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Its not even a choice.

 

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That's just a convenient way of saying "i don't want you to dispute me". I apply your logic elsewhere and it all falls apart. I'm sure if looked for it I could even find something in the TES universe that would be ridiculous if I applied your logic to it.

[Kraeten]

No one should have to give up their freedom just so that they don't have to die when they've done no wrong other than worship a particular god, something that is inherently benign.

 

No one is denying the injustice.

 

Again, in-game is not the same as a realistic representation. Most books you see in the game are there to fill up space, not to serve as an indication of anything about the person its tagged to belong to.

 

Prove that, and maybe I'll bother making a counter argument.

 

Natural affinity isn't the same as being extremely powerful.

 

I didn't say it was. The point, is because the Altmer have a natural affinity for magic the Dominion will posses the most mages by default. Factoring in the longer life span of High Elves compared to humans and many of their mages will be more experienced than their human equivalents as well.

 

Its not even a choice.

 

A person is diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. It's the fourth most common cause of cancer related deaths across the planet. Anyone with a decent understanding of the statistics will know this person's odds of beating it are incredibly small. This person can let the cancer take him quickly, or he can try to buy himself some more time with chemotherapy. You're seriously going to tell me that isn't a choice?! I think I've wasted enough time bothering with you.

 

That's just a convenient way of saying "i don't want you to dispute me"

Believe what you like, it doesn't matter to me at this point.

[imperistan]

No one is denying the injustice

 

But you would let it slide, which is far more terrible.

 

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Considering the nature of the game, its pretty self-evident.

 

Another good thing to note is that just being able to read doesn't indicate that you're educated. You can teach a man to read and write but that doesn't mean he's going to start discussing the moral implications of Hamlet or doing calculus without some considerable education.

 

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And even so, its still irrelevant. As I said, and have explained, magic had little to do with the Dominion's success. It was their tactics and the Empire's own weakness and unpreparedness at the time that won them so much in the Great War, not magic.

 

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You do realize that the two situations are completley different right? The man with cancer has a chance to live, no matter how small, so he has a choice between giving in to death or possibly beating it and coming out alive.

 

The man that has to choose between dying slowly and dying quickly has no real choice except the manner in which he dies.

[Kraeten]

But you would let it slide, which is far more terrible.

 

Yes, I would let it slide....for the sake of Cyrodiil, for the sake of the Empire, for the sake of a united mankind, and for the sake of denying the Aldmeri Dominion what they want. A divided mankind. And I managed it without calling anyone a "terrible person" or claiming the other side was morally and rationally bankrupt as Mac so dearly loves to keep implying. You've certainly tempted me to make such asinine assertions though on a few occasions.

 

You do realize that the two situations are completley different right? The man with cancer has a chance to live-

 

Completely different? The five year survival rate alone is less than five percent. Anyone who doesn't completely fail at math will know he's on the way out. If the survival rate was more like 35% and upwards, then I might entertain the idea of a Pancreatic cancer diagnosis as anything else but a death sentence.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

Yes, I would let it slide

 

There is no excuse for letting people die for no reason other than what they believe in. If men cannot have their freedom then they may as well be dead anyway.

 

• Cyrodiil isn't the only important place in Tamriel, and further I've already explained how its basically doomed to be devastated again regardless.
  
• Empires rise and fall. This one started on shaky grounds and has been steadily declining over the past 200 years, and will continue to do so. To insist on its continued existence is not only impede progress into what comes next, but is also very likely to doom mankind to far greater and longer strife then just the next war with the Dominion.
  
• Mankind's unity doesn't hinge on the Empire, only whoever can unite them. If we were talking the fate of Tamriel, perhaps you could cite the Empire, but its not Tamriel as a whole thats at stake, only mankind.
  
• Very logical. Denying someone something they want by giving them something else they equally want. Its like taking away the cake just to give them ice cream.
  

 

Completely different? The five year survival rate alone is less than five percent. Anyone who doesn't completely fail at math will know he's on the way out. If the survival rate was more like 35% and upwards, then I might entertain the idea of a Pancreatic cancer diagnosis as anything else but a death sentence.

 

That's still a chance at coming out alive. Anyone who has any reason or want to live at all will know that that is more than enough.

 

A small chance still exists, no matter how small it is.

 

And notice that I peg you as terrible based on your apparent morals, not just for the sake of insulting you. Prove that you're a better person than your views on this matter indicate then I will retract the statement, but then that just begs the question of why you're arguing against how you are as a person.

 

EDIT by LHammonds: Warning, this is called a Personal Attack and is not allowed on these sites.

[luzburg]

There is no excuse for letting people die for no reason other than what they believe in.

 

That ideal has caused more strife and death in this world than any other.

 

If men cannot have their freedom then they may as well be dead anyway.

 

Slavery is not always better than living free. Dieing slowly of starvation is not better than being a slave and getting regular meals and a roof to sleep under.

[fraquar]

Who says the only alternative to slavery is dying of starvation? You lost me there.....

[Kraeten]

There is no excuse for letting people die for no reason other than what they believe in.

 

Survival.

 

If men cannot have their freedom then they may as well be dead anyway.

 

Pretty words with little basis in reality.

 

[*]Cyrodiil isn't the only important place in Tamriel, and further I've already explained how its basically doomed to be devastated again regardless.

 

Oh, this again "Well the country is gonna get hurt real bad anyway...may as well leave it at the complete mercy of nazi elves". Very moral behavior.

 

[*]Empires rise and fall.

 

This one has suffered worse and miraculously survived.

 

. This one started on shaky grounds and has been steadily declining over the past 200 years, and will continue to do so. To insist on its continued existence is not only impede progress into what comes next,

 

Conjecture.

 

but is also very likely to doom mankind to far greater and longer strife then just the next war with the Dominion.

 

A possibility with nothing to back it up.

 

[*]Mankind's unity doesn't hinge on the Empire, only whoever can unite them.

 

I don't see anyone ready to take the Empire's place as unifier.

 

[*]Very logical. Denying someone something they want by giving them something else they equally want. Its like taking away the cake just to give them ice cream.

 

You're deluding yourself if you think the Dominion gets just as much pleasure from a Imperial Victory as a Stormcloak victory.

 

Anyone who has any reason or want to live at all will know that that is more than enough.

 

So you fail at math then. Good to know.

 

And notice that I peg you as terrible based-

 

Oh please, this is just more arrogant posturing. I'm not impressed, nor is anyone else I'd wager.

[RighthandofSithis]

Some things worth pointing out here,

 

• The Empire is only in a tenuous peace with the Thalmor, enemies of all the Nedic (human) peoples of Tamriel.
  
• The Thalmor frequently refer to the 'Great War' as the 'First War' just to make clear that the current peace will not last.
  
• The Altmer consider Mer to be the best racial group and the Thalmor restrict their ranks to the Altmer.
  
• The Aldmeri Dominion is reported to have commited a great deal of atrocious war crimes during the Great War.
  
• The Thalmor are working to bring about the rise of the Second Aldmeri Dominion so they may conquer all of Tamriel.
  
• The Altmer commonly engage in controlled breeding in order to create the best people possible, purity of blood is very important to them.
  
• The Dominion almost succeeded in destroying the Empire.
  
• The Dominion minimizes the contributions of Men in the Oblivion Crisis taking full credit for ending it.
  
• The Dominion has already 'purged' the Summerset Isles of all those of non-Mer descent.
  

 

The Aldmeri Dominion is a pretty obvious representation of the Axis Powers of WWII. The current peace resulting from the White Gold Concordant is essentially what you'd get if WWII ended in a stalemate between the Axis and the Allies.

 

• 
   
  
• The Empire is The Allied Powers, the Second Aldmeri Dominion is the Axis.
  
• The Altmer of Summerset Isles are Nazi Germany.
  
• The Thalmor are the SS.
  
• The Second Aldmeri Dominion is the Third Reich.
  
• The Oblivion Crisis acts a lot like WWI, a time of great upheaval that caused existing powers structures to greatly shift. Minimizing the contributions of Men in ending it is similar to how the Nazi's refused to acknowledge the service of Jewish Germans in WWI.
  
• The way the Imperials treat Talos worship is similar to the way the French Government treated their Jewish peopulation during the occupation of France by the Nazis (see Vel' d'Hiv Roundup). While it may have been possible to refuse the demands of the Nazi's, it would likely have just resulted in an renewal of conflict in an already defeated France (which was in no position to resume full scale war) that could have crippled the French Resistance and led to a total-defeat (where the Nazi's get anything and everything they want).
  

 

And lets also remember that Russia, a cold, hard land with thousands of years of warfare and brutality, had a revolution that caused a lot of fear in the former Entente powers.

 

This fear was born out of a fear that Germany would rise again, and this time, Russia would not fight them (and of course, the predicted World Revolution).

 

Don't get me wrong, the Stormcloaks share no ideological similarities with the Bolsheviks, Ulfric is by no means a Lenin, nor Galmar a Trotsky or Stalin. But it is something worth Remembering.

 

Also, another comparison. The modern Arab nations may be compared to Hammerfell. They may have supported Hitler in WW2, but that was largely because they were fed up with the Israelis immigrating to Palestine. The Redguards are known to hold a deep hatred for the Thalmor and the Empire, placing them ideologically more in line with the Stormcloaks.

 

So with this in mind, I think that both the Empire, and a Skyrim/Hammerfell alliance could represent the allies of WW2.

[imperistan]

Survival.

 

Not going over why this is wrong, again.

 

Pretty words with little basis in reality.

 

Sorry if I value freedom more than you do.

 

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No one's suggesting abandoning Cyrodiil. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

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And yet is continually and steadily declining. That its managing to hold on doesn't change the fact that its still going to fall apart in time.

 

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Ignoring reality.

 

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Sigh. Not explaining it again.

 

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Fascinating. I guess Skyrim the game doesn't exist now? 0.o

 

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Tell that to the dying cancer patient who doesn't want to die. Are you seriously going to tell them "Oh you're just going to die" or are you going to comfort them with the knowledge that there is some chance that they'll survive?

 

And you wonder why I say you're terrible.