Those "What have I done?" Moments

[Kayyyleb]

@Kayyyleb That last part was not supposed to be there that was something I meant to erase but forget to (It was not distracted at you). I'll say this then leave. If there's no good and evil then you making me somewhat upset (by disagreeing with me) is as bad as what Hitler did in world war two. Remember if there's no black and white then there can be no shades of gray. How do you make gray darker or lighter without adding black or white? How do you even get gray without black and white?

 

 

Evil is defined as "Evil generally seeks own benefit at the expense of others and is based on general malevolence". Well Hitler benefited at the expense of others (malevolence: a Hostile attitude or feeling. Behavior exhibiting a hostile attitude.) and Hitler was vary hostile and exhibited a hostile attitude. In short Hitler was evil if he was evil then evil must be real.

Just no. Everything in that post is wrong. I'm glad you're done because I'm evidently wasting my time...

[AlduinWorldEater]

In the Companions quest-line, the first time you storm a Silver Hand settlement on Aela´s command. Wanting to test out the new werewolf form, I cleared it completely without transforming back once, and they didn't stand a chance. Interestingly, the need to stay in form pretty much simulated actual blood rush.

 

When I became myself again and started gathering loot, it struck me just how much destruction and pain I'd wrought on comparatively helpless people for no better reason than because I was asked to.

 

Following the trail of enemies I'd killed without a second thought, almost without paying attention, all the way up to the entrance was surreal. What a mess! Bodies everywhere, in corners and over tables where I'd thrown them in rage, the floor littered with weapons and general goods knocked about in the struggle.

 

I didn't remember half the kills.

 

Then and there, I decided to only ever transform if there was no other option for survival AT ALL.

 

It was a beautiful moment.

 

I use the "Ichigo Vasto Lorde Transformation" mod in a manner very similar to this. I'll keep the transformation power on tap, and when the screen starts to turn red, I transform and all hell breaks loose. Blood and body parts fly around until I run out of magicka (or everyone dies, whichever comes first).

 

My biggest "What have I done!?" moment, though, was when I first played through the main quest...when Esbern and Delphine ask me to kill Paarthurnax. I blindy followed orders, as the power-driven "mighty hero of justice" is prone to doing...and as I stood there and watched the flesh burn from his bones, I actually began to physically feel guilty. I thought to myself, "All he did was help me. He even gave me the tools to learn a shout that he KNEW could be the undoing of his entire race...and I drove an axe into his skull as a thank-you."

 

http://chan.catiewayne.com/b/src/136042532756.jpg

[sisterof]

 

 

The only thing I recall was the Molag ball quest, because bethesda didn't give us an alternative to killing the priest.

I always found the Vigilants to be disgustingly self-righteous which gives me little problem with putting them in their place.

 

No, I meant the priest of boethiah. It's not that I particulary like the guy, but being forced to kill a caged defenceless old man goes against my main's nature. Bethesda should have added an alternative to that. Usually we get a chance to challenge the daedric lords, but not in that one.

 

There are no multiple ways of finishing quests (hence my issue with TES being called RPG), and in several, several cases, there's also not even the option of refusing a quest altogether.

With the priest of Boethiah, I killed him during his rescue since I knew how that was going to turn out and it was extremely out of character for the character I was playing. By killing the priest, the Molag Bal cannot get his soul. Also the quest fails, which is fine by me. The character I played in that time would never willingly assist Daedra.

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by sisterof

[LithiumPower]

I think those 'what have I done' moments exist to give you a pause. They're not there to curb your roleplaying but to enhance it.

 

Not doing a quest is an option, the fact that it stays in your journal or quest log is just a mechanics issue. I don't think any one character if being roleplayed with a personality, is supposed to finish every quest they come across. It represents the character progressing along a path only to abandon it on principle - what's anti-RP about that?

 

You come across a Vigilant trying to investigate an abandoned house. You have a choice, help him or don't. You decide to help him - that has consequences, including horrible ones. Once you enter the house, Molag Bal won't let you leave - that's his character - Domination, Subjugation, Brutality. It would be out of character for him to let you out. And the player can't take on Daedric Lords one on one, that's futile. So will you kill the man to get out of the house or refuse to act? My character chose not to act. The other man made a choice, choosing to attack me. I retaliated and he died. Molag Bal got what he wanted because he's a Goddman Daedra Lord and I'm a level 17 grunt on the first trip to Markarth.

 

It's your choice again to purse the quest and bring the priest to MB or run for the hills screaming and never enter civilisation again, stewing in the guilt of what you had to do.

 

Once you allow yourself by choice, even unwittingly, to enter Molag Bal's sphere of influence you're trapped - usurping free will is what he does. And you can't fight him. He's a Daedric Prince.

 

The same goes for all the Dark Brotherhood missions. When you sign up to join a band of murderers for hire - the initiation test of which is meant to prove you have the lack of conscience to kill on demand without hesitation - you really can't complain that some of your assignments are tugging at your heart strings - it's intentional. Bethesda wants you to kill innocent people and deal with how that may or may not make you feel.

 

Finally, it's very immersive and great role-play opportunity that certain powers/abilities/items are unavailable to you if you stick to playing in-character. You can't have everything. You can't learn every shout if you refuse to join the DBH or TG and that's a consequence the good-guy rp'er choose to live with. "I know my choices have cut me off from power but I refuse to refuse to kill an innocent person to learn the next Marked for Death word."

 

Unlike RPGs that force you down a linear path depending on superficial, binary good and evil paths, Bethesda make you choose where to draw a line.

 

I come across characters that are somehow still heroic despite being DBH or TG members and it's perfect because real-life evil isn't self-aware. Everyone internally justifies their decisions.

 

I love that Bethesda allows you to experience that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[sisterof]

I think those 'what have I done' moments exist to give you a pause. They're not there to curb your roleplaying but to enhance it.

 

Not doing a quest is an option, the fact that it stays in your journal or quest log is just a mechanics issue. I don't think any one character if being roleplayed with a personality, is supposed to finish every quest they come across. It represents the character progressing along a path only to abandon it on principle - what's anti-RP about that?

 

[...] Once you allow yourself by choice, even unwittingly, to enter Molag Bal's sphere of influence you're trapped - usurping free will is what he does. And you can't fight him. He's a Daedric Prince.

[...] I love that Bethesda allows you to experience that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I have to agree those moments add a lot to roleplaying since the shock of having them unfold before your eyes makes you stop and think "what would my character do now?". I really like what you point out about the Daedric Lords - once you get involved with them, it's expected that they overwhelm you and end up playing you like a puppet. This is one thing that made me fall in love with my current character, and the only one I ever played as the Dragonborn. He grew a lot in complexity when you get helplessly manipulated by Hermaeus Mora. It finally popped the bubble I was in, having played him as the ideal hero type until that moment and then having him pushed to act against everything he believes - because indeed the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

What I don't agree with is the utter lack of any different outcome for whatever quest you choose. Of course you can simply ignore them (and the journal cluttering is very annoying). But your character doesn't have a voice, there's little to no dialogue choices to reflect personality (at least you can give the Daedra the finger, even though you still do their biding), no usage of persuasion against enemies, and so on. I bet you already did so, but if not, play Baldur's Gate one day or, to a lesser extent, Dragon Age, and compare. The only significant RP choices I can remember now in TES are killing Astrid as soon as she kidnaps you, killing or not the priest in Vaermina's quest, and changing sides in the Civil War during the Jagged Crown quest. There probably are more not occurring to me right now, but that's still a very limited number.

 

As for the Dark Brotherhood, I really like how despicable some missions are. And the fact that both in Skyrim and Oblivion, you lose your "family". It's a great case of "oh, so you want to serve the Void?". Having your character perform the Purification in Oblivion was brilliant. It truly shapes your assassin into a member of the Black Hand. The DB is all about blindly obeying the Night Mother. There should be no choice when it comes to that. Even the means of assassination are bound by contract.

 

And about the inaccessible Shouts... I can see where you're coming from. But I still think it's Bethesda's way of making the players get those über-characters who are masters of everything. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to enter Labirynthian when it's clearly a place that would get the Dragonborn's attention, but is blocked by a rock (huge hairy deal) that mysteriously disappears once the Civil War questline gets going. Or why can't the Dragonborn ask for the key to the College's excavation site or participate in the quest without having the mantle of Archmage thrown his way. By the way, I did a big part of the College questline solely to get to that point, pretending that the mages simply hired my Dragonborn for help. It was hilarious that I could get the title of Archmage without knowing a single spell - and a huge laziness on Bethesda's part (why can't we have "tests", since it's a college, to prove ability before being able to advance?).

Edited March 11, 2013 by sisterof

[gaminggriffin]

I killed lydia by accident, it was so tragic :facepalm:. why divines, WHY!?.

[LithiumPower]

What I don't agree with is the utter lack of any different outcome for whatever quest you choose. Of course you can simply ignore them (and the journal cluttering is very annoying). But your character doesn't have a voice, there's little to no dialogue choices to reflect personality (at least you can give the Daedra the finger, even though you still do their biding), no usage of persuasion against enemies, and so on. I bet you already did so, but if not, play Baldur's Gate one day or, to a lesser extent, Dragon Age, and compare. The only significant RP choices I can remember now in TES are killing Astrid as soon as she kidnaps you, killing or not the priest in Vaermina's quest, and changing sides in the Civil War during the Jagged Crown quest. There probably are more not occurring to me right now, but that's still a very limited number.

Yes, I agree it would be great if there were bigger consequences to deal with and I would love for the world to reflect your decisions more but ultimately I think engine-limitations restrict all that a developer might want to do. The fact is that real player choice cannot exist in a game, it's always going to be the illusion of player choice. When you compare different play throughs, the illusion starts to fray as you realise how little difference you actually made. The developer has to imagine a number of possibilities and code for those and the more consequences they have to code for, the less breadth they can give their game. CDProjektRED did a good job with choice-consequence in Witcher. One of my favourite bits from the first game is when you have to make a choice between an arrogant faction leader and a buddy-cop faction leader. Naturally most people go with the latter, but in the final show down his faction commits such horrible atrocities that you desperately try to reload only to realise your choice was made 20 hours of play ago. You have to LIVE with your horror. In other cases the situation is reversed. I would have liked if Bethesda had done something like that for the Civil War quests - I know (and you know) that I argue pro-stormcloak a lot but if my choices doom Windhelm's Dunmer to misery, I'd like to see it and be forced to live with the enormity of my actions. We do see it to some extent but it's limiited and I'd like a more enhanced experience.

And about the inaccessible Shouts... I can see where you're coming from. But I still think it's Bethesda's way of making the players get those über-characters who are masters of everything. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to enter Labirynthian when it's clearly a place that would get the Dragonborn's attention, but is blocked by a rock (huge hairy deal) that mysteriously disappears once the Civil War questline gets going. Or why can't the Dragonborn ask for the key to the College's excavation site or participate in the quest without having the mantle of Archmage thrown his way. By the way, I did a big part of the College questline solely to get to that point, pretending that the mages simply hired my Dragonborn for help. It was hilarious that I could get the title of Archmage without knowing a single spell - and a huge laziness on Bethesda's part (why can't we have "tests", since it's a college, to prove ability before being able to advance?).

Do you mean Korvanjund? It was blocked before and unblocked later because Galmar had it excavated. I really liked how excavation was handled in Dragonborn. Access for Labyrithian and Saarthal was only available to the college - sort of makes sense in the former case. The Archmage wouldn't have wanted anyone stumbling into Labyrinthian after he'd been a part of what had happened there. I can't think of any reason why Saarthal was closed off though. I definitely, definitely OMG-SO-MUCH would like to see skill/perk locks on some achivements. It really is ridiculous you can be Arch-Mage without being a magic-user. I can sort of see how a non-magic user could help with those quests but no way they'd be archmage without meeting some requirements more complex than 'Cast Flames'. I frankly used a mod to make Tolfdir the Archmage because my Dovahkin just didn't have time to mentor students nor did I think I deserved it, even though I had high destruction and conjuration.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Sarthaal was closed because the college was escavating it.... FOR SCIENCE!!!
This is procedure of many archaeological dig sites....they don't want random people coming along and looting the site of precious artifacts.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Biggest "What Have I Done?!!!" moment was helping the shopkeep in Markarth get back her statue from the Forsworn because her failing shop and her dead husband won my sympathy.....only to find out she had EATEN her husband and that she was a crazy cannibal. After doing the Namira quest I sacrificed Eola on Boethia's spike and killed all the other cannibals one by one. Got away with killing the meat guy and the dog guy by pulling the Thane card.

"You have commited crimes against Skyrim and her people! What do you have to say for yourself."

"I'm an Thane. This is official Thane business. License to Kill."

[Kayyyleb]

I killed lydia by accident, it was so tragic :facepalm:. why divines, WHY!?.

I killed her on purpose. :3

 

She started randomly attacking Anska during her quest so I killed her so I could finish the quest without those 2 fighting the whole time.