BrettM Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Magic is not traditional? Someone had better tell that to Tsun. If you tell him that your right to enter the Hall of Valor is due to your position as Arch-Mage, he will tell you that mages were highly valued by the ancient Nords and are still honored in Sovngarde despite the views of the modern Nords. You will also see mages among the heroes inside the Hall of Valor. The draugr, who are all ancient Nords, are mostly warriors, but include a few mages as well as a few Tongues. There are references that mention battlemages among the armies of Skyrim during the early eras. Kings had a battlemage among their advisers and every jarl right up to the present day has a court wizard. The College of Winterhold has existed since the time of Shalidor in the First Era. I'd say there's plenty of evidence that magic use is traditional in Nord society and has been respected during most of their history. The real mystery is how it came to be so widely distrusted in the present day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 That's an excellent point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) The real mystery is how it came to be so widely distrusted in the present day.Its not a mystery at all -Elves, the most hated enemy of mankind are primarily magic users.-The Oblivion Crisis was started by magic users.-The Great collapse destroyed nearly all of Wintehorld, exceptt the College, which seemed to survive using magic, which caused many to question if the college caused or, could hav prevent it, or at least could have saved more of the city. Edited August 11, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorch621 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Hmmm... I haven't actually started a Mage character yet...But yeah that's a fair enough point... Didn't ulfric ride out the gates on a horse?Somehow...But I agree with sfbryan on one point, Beth did make it so both side are right in their own ways, but I still preferThe empire, a unified tamriel is in my opinion better for skyrim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djinx187 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) LoL. Seriously? I've seen the guards run at everything in Skyrim including dragons, but the big bad Jarl was too scary for them. Besides that, prove your theory. Do any of the guards say this? Again in game programming dictates what they do the same way horses attack dragons and unarmed peasants in clothing attack dragons not what they would actually do. I'm pretty sure that if an unarmed peasant saw a dragon he would be brave enough to punch it. I've seen guards chase down and kill a chicken. I've seen guards watch people get slaughtered by bandits. Look at being a thane in a hold and pull off a crime what option becomes available when the guards talk to you? Pretty sure a thane is lower then a jarl and less known so I'm sure a Jarl could get away with a lot more. Higher ranking people can get away with more it's that simple. I'll even put it in gameplay terms. He killed one person for 1000 septim bounty he could of paid them off or told them he was a jarl. The written story and gameplay have two different sets of actions and consequences put in to them. Edited August 12, 2012 by djinx187 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 @djinx187, I read what you wrote, and it's simply just too much nonsense for me to waste my time on... You're wrong about many of your arguments... Mainly the argument that a Jarls influence would allow him to walk away from murdering the high king. A thanes pardon doesn't involve murdering royalty. During the DB, assassinate the imposter Emperor after becoming thane of Solitude. You get a 1500 bounty and the Thane will allow you up to 2000, but the guards will not even talk to you about this because they are too busy trying to kill you. Influence only does so much after you just killed a ruler. Also, you argued that the AI of the guards is because the game isn't perfect, and if you want to go there then I will agree that the game isn't perfect and neither is its story... No guards would allow their king to be murdered. Don't try to argue against this because if you really think the guards would just stand there and watch their king get murdered, then you're a fool who isn't worth responding to. As far as which laws Ulfric broke, Imperial or Nord, what you wrote was rambling nonsense. Ulfric challenged the king, the challenge was accepted, and he killed him. Perhaps Imperial law would mean something if Ulfric wasn't fighting to get rid of them. "Ulfric just wants to be high king." This statement is so immature because it is not finished... "Ulfric just wants to be high king... Because the high king allowed the Empire and the Thalmor to ban Talos, and Ulfric wants to free Skyrim from tyranny and oppression." This is the complete reason, don't forget it. It's like if I always said... "The Empire just wants to rule Skyrim." Obviously, there's more to the story. But seriously, this argument is really starting to piss me off, so please continue if you want, but if you quote me anymore, I'm going to contact the moderators. I don't mind a good discussion, but when I have to constantly respond to ridiculous illogical nonsense, that's when I've had enough. I don't mind if you speak about what I've said, but please stop quoting me. It's a way of trolling me into this ridiculous debate by saying "Hey, this is what you wrote, and if you don't respond, then I win". Obviously, it isn't true, but it's annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cartersj Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 @djinx187, I read what you wrote, and it's simply just too much nonsense for me to waste my time on... You're wrong about many of your arguments... Mainly the argument that a Jarls influence would allow him to walk away from murdering the high king. A thanes pardon doesn't involve murdering royalty. During the DB, assassinate the imposter Emperor after becoming thane of Solitude. You get a 1500 bounty and the Thane will allow you up to 2000, but the guards will not even talk to you about this because they are too busy trying to kill you. Influence only does so much after you just killed a ruler. Also, you argued that the AI of the guards is because the game isn't perfect, and if you want to go there then I will agree that the game isn't perfect and neither is its story... No guards would allow their king to be murdered. Don't try to argue against this because if you really think the guards would just stand there and watch their king get murdered, then you're a fool who isn't worth responding to. As far as which laws Ulfric broke, Imperial or Nord, what you wrote was rambling nonsense. Ulfric challenged the king, the challenge was accepted, and he killed him. Perhaps Imperial law would mean something if Ulfric wasn't fighting to get rid of them. "Ulfric just wants to be high king." This statement is so immature because it is not finished... "Ulfric just wants to be high king... Because the high king allowed the Empire and the Thalmor to ban Talos, and Ulfric wants to free Skyrim from tyranny and oppression." This is the complete reason, don't forget it. It's like if I always said... "The Empire just wants to rule Skyrim." Obviously, there's more to the story. But seriously, this argument is really starting to piss me off, so please continue if you want, but if you quote me anymore, I'm going to contact the moderators. I don't mind a good discussion, but when I have to constantly respond to ridiculous illogical nonsense, that's when I've had enough. I don't mind if you speak about what I've said, but please stop quoting me. It's a way of trolling me into this ridiculous debate by saying "Hey, this is what you wrote, and if you don't respond, then I win". Obviously, it isn't true, but it's annoying. "Ulfric just wants to be High King" - Of course he does, the whole Stormcloak rebellion was started several years after the White-Gold concordat, as a power-grab. Ulfric does have valid points, but to him they aren't so important. If you carefully listen to his dialogue, it's designed to inspire the Nords, as any speech should, but talk to Ulfric himself and he doesn't care too much about the populace. Especially non-Nords. He's elitist. "The Empire just wants to rule Skyrim." - They don't necessarily rule it, in case you didn't know. They get resources, and soldiers for the legion, but the Nords still have their High King. Each province is given a large measure of freedom. The reason that Ulfric didn't become High King after killing Torryg is because most don't consider the Voice to be "fair" in a fight. Just like they wouldn't consider magic "fair". Not all Nords side with Ulfric, but very few non-Nords side with him. Just look at the Grey Quarter in Windhelm to see what he thinks of other races. Elisif isn't corrupt like Ulfric mentions in his final speech. In fact, she's still grieving over the loss of her husband, as she mentions after that speech in conversation. The Empire isn't some dying force, and Titus Mede II refused the terms in the White-Gold Concordat once before, but after the Imperial City had been sacked by the Dominion and retaken (at a great cost mind you) did the Emperor accept those terms. Plus the fall of the Blades. War with the Aldmeri Dominion will begin again, I promise you. Skyrim needs to stand with the Empire when that happens. General Tullius may not understand the Nords, I admit, but I can understand where he's coming from. In his mind he needs to get troops to places like Whiterun, but the Jarls are refusing his help, so he's getting angry. He needs those cities to remain independent, not under the control of the Stormcloaks. If he was truly as bad as some think, he wouldn't ask, he would just force the troops down the Jarl's collective throats. The Empire has made some mistakes, but they're not what detractors make them out to be. A few helpful links:http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_Warhttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ulfric_Stormcloak (the part about Torryg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) You're wrong about many of your arguments... Mainly the argument that a Jarls influence would allow him to walk away from murdering the high king. A thanes pardon doesn't involve murdering royalty. During the DB, assassinate the imposter Emperor after becoming thane of Solitude. You get a 1500 bounty and the Thane will allow you up to 2000, but the guards will not even talk to you about this because they are too busy trying to kill you. Influence only does so much after you just killed a ruler.Actually the guards do let you talk to them after killing the fake Emperor...... They have a dialog option-To pay off the bounty for the full price, or if you are in the Thieves Guild or have a bribery perk, for a reduced price-To use your Thane privilege to have the bounty removed-That allows you to get off Scott free by using a persuasion attempt. The persuasion attempt is bugged and broken, but you can easily pay off the 1,500 gold bounty, or use your Thane privilege, I do it literally every single time I play the quest. Edited August 12, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 You can pay the bounty or use the privilage after you escape the hold and return, but you do not get the option to surrender during the quest. I've tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Then your game is bugged. After you beat the three Penitus Oculatus guys on the escape route, and while walking down the windmill tower to escape, the city guard can get into the tower at which point one of them force greets you asking you to surrender, just like guards always do after you commit a crime. I have payed off the fine without having to leave the hold, or even the city, in every single playthrough of the game. Edited August 13, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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