But seriously, who do you think really won the civil war?

[YsmirNord]

Maybe the next TES will be set in the past

[kradus]

I think the empire would have won. According to Hadvar, General Tullius turned things around for the empire since he took over, and came to the point of capturing Ulfric alive by ambush. If things where to resume where they left off, the empire would still have the same advantage.

[LithiumPower]

As a stormcloak through and through, I tend to think that without the Dragonborn's intervention - Ulfric would not be able to sustain the rebellion indefinitely. They are quite beleaguered and stretched with resources running low and losing men all the time. Eventually, the Empire would bolster Tullius and occupy the rebellious holds. Skyrim is practically the only province left that hasn't been razed in the Great War and the Empire needs to hold on to it desperately.

 

Having said that, the Empire is no tender and wise, fatherly figure trying to caution a wayward child and keep the family together. The Empire is a corrupt, bloated cancer that has done nothing for any of its provinces and it's fallacy to think they are eventually going to take up arms against the Dominion. It is has acted out of sheer self-preservation at every turn. The civil war in Skyrim is pretty much precisely what happened in Hammerfell. The empire agreed to a terms that overwhelming disadvantaged the respective provinces without consulting them or involving them in the decision because it lost the nerve to continue fighting (the great irony is that they couldn't have retaken the Imperial City if not for troops from Skyrim under Jonna) and sold them out, allying with the Dominion against the very people they were supposed to protect.

 

It's not just Thalmor patrols rounding up Talos worshippers in Skyrim, imperial troops are seen rounding up dissidents just as frequently. And if people are being tortured in Northwatch Keep, Castle Dour dungeon has its own torture racks and broken bodies. Meanwhile, Imperial Jarls and Thanes are carousing at Elenwen's estate and have little regard for the future of Skyrim. Elisef, Balgruuf (kudos to the poster above who pointed out that Balgruuf is nice to the player but completely apathetic otherwise. I didn't see him overly concerned about Thorvald Grey-Mane's fate), the Battle-born clan, Idgrod, Siddgeir, Korrir, Maven Black-Briar, Igmund are hardly people on war-footing ready to fight the Dominion. They're completely self-involved and indulgent.

 

On the other hand, stormcloak jarls are not all squeaky clean or exceptionally intelligent or wise but they are alive to the problem of the Dominion. They are not indulgent and decadent - they are angry and war-ready, they show some feeling or concern for the issues that plague the land. Vignar is a better Jarl than Balgruuf who can't seem to get over his supposed childhood rivalry with Ulfric. Laila Lawgiver is decent and at the very least better than Maven outright in charge, Dengeir is shrewd and if he's 'paranoid' about imperial spies, he isn't completely unjustified - he was deposed rather conveniently and we do encounter imperial scouts running everywhere and even the one spy in Markarth. Skald may not be the brightest crayon in the box but he's concerned about the right things like giants and the war. Sorli the Builder is competent and sensible as opposed to sitting around having 'visions'. Even the stormcloak sympathising Thane Bryling in Solitude is a contrast to the corrupt, shady Erikur. As for the Silver-bloods, the supposedly 'evil' stormcloak counterpart to Maven - once again, he has the right enemy in his sight. Even the Reachmen in Markarth hate and fear the Forsworn, they are depraved and he's justified going all out in trying to rid his city of them.

 

Basically, nothing on the Imperial platter suggests that they are at all sincere about getting rid of the Dominion. They haven't lifted a finger to do so in the 30 years since the Great War and contrary to their claims are pretty much in bed with the Thalmor at this point if only to stay in power. Historical precedence warns against trusting them to safeguard the well-being of Skyrim. It'll be a terrible tragedy if Skyrim is prevented from being able to follow in Hammerfell's footsteps, perhaps ally with them and High Rock to finally drive the Dominion out and build a new empire or union. Tiber Septim's empire is already dead and nostalgia isn't going to bring it back.

[kradus]

 

Having said that, the Empire is no tender and wise, fatherly figure trying to caution a wayward child and keep the family together. The Empire is a corrupt, bloated cancer that has done nothing for any of its provinces and it's fallacy to think they are eventually going to take up arms against the Dominion. It is has acted out of sheer self-preservation at every turn. The civil war in Skyrim is pretty much precisely what happened in Hammerfell. The empire agreed to a terms that overwhelming disadvantaged the respective provinces without consulting them or involving them in the decision because it lost the nerve to continue fighting (the great irony is that they couldn't have retaken the Imperial City if not for troops from Skyrim under Jonna) and sold them out, allying with the Dominion against the very people they were supposed to protect.

 

 

The emperor did what was necessary to keep things together. Talks of corruption and everything else is mostly stormcloak/thalmor propaganda.

Edited February 8, 2013 by kradus

[LithiumPower]

It's not propaganda when it's observable. Ordinary citizens like Adrienne Avennicci (who is an Imperial herself and closely involved in Whtierun politics because of her father) explain the empire has traditionally bought the loyalty of Jarls with coin. You can see that yourself in the case of Siddgeir, Maven Black-Briar, Balgruuf and the Battleborns. The Battleborns we learn have gotten amazingly rich recently after dealings with the Imperials. We know the Jarls of Solitude who have traditionally held the title of High Kings have done so on the support of the empire. Why is that the the overwhelming number of people who support the Empire are rich and capitalistic?

 

Secondly the Empire has done nothing to keep things together. They did not react when Black Marsh seceded and advanced on Morrowind, presumably because Cyrodiil was not threatened. They did not act when Valenwood's government was overthrown and the province taken under Thalmor control. Then again there was no reaction when Elsewyr seceded. They only reacted against the Thalmor when they invaded Cyrodiil. And when the Dominion demanded Hammerfell territory, the Empire not only agreed but renounced the province altogether when they protested. These are the 'facts' presented in the Concise History of the Great War written by imperial scholars. This isn't stormcloak propaganda. Stormcloaks aren't organised enough to produce any books except for that one pitifully desperate - Nords Arise!

 

The Legion is there in Skyrim not to keep the Thalmor out but to keep them IN and to stamp out separationists. Say, Ulfric and the Stormcloaks were to be all sucked into the Soul Cairn and the Civil War completely stopped - what do you think will happen? Do you see the legion returning to cyrodiil and taking the Thalmor with them, leaving the nords to worship Talos in peace? Or do you see more Imperial patrols carting off people in chains, more Thalmor prison camps like Northwatch Keep and Thalmor patrolliing the countryside for Talos worshippers, more Castle Dours with dungeons full of tortured prisoners in every hold. There are Thalmor agents in nearly every Imperial controlled city - Ondolemar in Markarth, Elenwen in Solitude, Ancano at the College of Winterhold. To be honest, there is an argument the White Gold Concordat is a sham in itself - a face saving measure. That the Empire surrendered, there was no "victory" at Red Ring and the terms of surrender were identical to the ultimatum at the start. No Thalmor ever acknowledges defeat, they call it a surrender as do the Stormcloaks. It's only the Imperials who insist that there was a truce and a peace treaty at all. So I'd cast even that in some doubt but be that as it may, if the Thalmor are so closely entwined in the workings of the Imperial forces in Skyrim who is to say that the same isn't so in Cyrodiil?

 

How is this second Great War lead by a united empire even going to be planned with Thalmor presence in every war-room?

[kradus]

The millitary is independent, they are not ruled by the thalmor. And you keep refering to the opinions of those who oppose the empire. I dont see why making business deals with the very empire you live in makes you corrupt. If the civil war ends in favour of the empire, then the legions can rebuild, and will obviously stand a much better chance at defeating the Dominion, should they invade(by which time the WGC is invalid) than if it breaks into seperate nations. Also I have yet to see a stormcloak Jarl that is any good for anything, Balgruuf is one the most competent, as he managed to keep the Thalmor out without actually breaking from the empire, and is more concerned with dealing with the dragons than anyone else.

 

Also, blackmarch, valenwood, and elsweyr where lost way before the events of the fourth age, and following the oblivion crisis, when lidership handn't been defined. One more example that imperial segregation is a great advantage for the Dominion.

 

The reason for the White-gold concordat is quite simple, both sides suffered great millitary loses in the war, but while Dominion lands where untouched, the empire, mainly Cyrodill got trashed and the imperial city sacked. The empire wouldn't the able to mount a proper invasion without reinforcements and supplies, so aquiring the time to rebuild was paramount.

Remember that Titus Mede is a Talos worshiper who gave everything he had to beat the Thalmor.

 

If you like the stormcloaks, think being a rebel is cool, fine. But you can't just reshape the lore and take in-game propaganda seriously to suit your position, while turning a blind eye to the fact that you're doing exactly what the Thalmor want you to do.

Edited February 8, 2013 by kradus

[UrgeNexus]

 

Having said that, the Empire is no tender and wise, fatherly figure trying to caution a wayward child and keep the family together. The Empire is a corrupt, bloated cancer that has done nothing for any of its provinces and it's fallacy to think they are eventually going to take up arms against the Dominion. It is has acted out of sheer self-preservation at every turn. The civil war in Skyrim is pretty much precisely what happened in Hammerfell. The empire agreed to a terms that overwhelming disadvantaged the respective provinces without consulting them or involving them in the decision because it lost the nerve to continue fighting (the great irony is that they couldn't have retaken the Imperial City if not for troops from Skyrim under Jonna) and sold them out, allying with the Dominion against the very people they were supposed to protect.

 

 

The emperor did what was necessary to keep things together. Talks of corruption and everything else is mostly stormcloak/thalmor propaganda.

It really isn't, I'm an Empire supporter but my thoughts on the Empire is basically that it's the lesser evil at this point. Corruption is rampant in the Empire, as it would be in any civilization of such a scale.

 

I don't think the situation in Skyrim and Hammerfell are quite the same though. Hammerfell was forced to cede a large chunk of territory, territory that was home to people and likely provided valuable resources to the nation as a whole. Skyrim was denied the right to worship a God.

 

Religion is an important part of life in Skyrim and I get that, but is it worth tearing the nation apart with a civil war? They could always worship in secret, which is what people were doing with no real cosequences until Ulfric made a fuss about it. Had everyone in Skyrim just continued to worship Talos in secret and keep their heads on, the Thalmor may not have started enforcing the ban as strictly as they do now. In short, I think the Stormcloaks over-reacted hugely. They're passionate about what they believe in which is all well and good, but they're not looking at the big picture. A civil war does no good to anyone except the Thalmor. Had they managed to keep a cool head and think ahead, Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole would be much better off against a very dangerous and insidious threat to not only Tamriel but all of Mundus.

 

Obviously most people don't know just how bad the Thalmor issue actually is, but I still don't see how any reasonable person can think a civil war will make the situation any better. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good, the Stormcloaks seem to be unable or unwilling to understand this.

[Drakescale]

It will be Imperial's brief victory as I can't see the civil war ending in a stalemate nor in favor of Stormcloak (although I chose the Stormcloak having Imperials attempting to chop my head off), and later taken by the Thalmore. They kept their involvement to a minimum: 1. To rebuild military might, 2. Crushing the weary victor is better than fighting both, and 3. The Dragonborn. But being a race with genocidal tendencies, the Dominion's victory too will be short lived as Skyrim-Imperial remnants fights back. Can't have Thalmore winning indefinitely since that would mean human extinction on Tamriel plus I don't think Akatosh will let it happen.

[LithiumPower]

The millitary is independent, they are not ruled by the thalmor. And you keep refering to the opinions of those who oppose the empire. I dont see why making business deals with the very empire you live in makes you corrupt. If the civil war ends in favour of the empire, then the legions can rebuild, and will obviously stand a much better chance at defeating the Dominion, should they invade(by which time the WGC is invalid) than if it breaks into seperate nations. Also I have yet to see a stormcloak Jarl that is any good for anything, Balgruuf is one the most competent, as he managed to keep the Thalmor out without actually breaking from the empire, and is more concerned with dealing with the dragons than anyone else.

 

The military is independent and not ruled by the Thalmor? Really? Tullius must have missed the memo when he gave up half his Castle to the Thalmor in Solitude or maybe he invited Elenwen to the Season Unending Cease-fire talks because they're such good friends. Balgruuf is concerned with keeping his hide together first and foremost. He is initially supportive of the Dragonborn because a dragon attacks his city. He is quite quick to refuse you aid against the dragons until you get him assurances from everyone that he won't be attacked by either faction, cleverly using you to secure his position. His concern for his citizens is so great, Thorvald Grey-Mane has been kidnapped by the Thalmor from right beneath his castle steps - good job keeping them out Balgruuf! Not to mention his own children being swayed by Mephala herself. I don't see him winning any Father of the Year Awards for that one. He's also quite prompt in throwing Heimskr in jail the moment there's the slightest bit of threat to his person.

 

Also, blackmarch, valenwood, and elsweyr where lost way before the events of the fourth age, and following the oblivion crisis, when lidership handn't been defined. One more example that imperial segregation is a great advantage for the Dominion.

 

Not quite correct. Black Marsh it is true seceded right after the Oblivion Crisis in 4E year 1 as revenge for thousands of years of slavery. They bolted at the first sign of weakening. The present-day Empire is basically a Mede Empire established after Titus Mede I captured Imperial City in 4E17 and was crowned emperor. He's a direct ancestor of Titus Mede II whom we encounter in Skyrim. The Aldmeri Dominion wasn't even formed at this time. That happened in 4E29 when the Thalmor managed to instigate a coup and overthrow the Imperial backed legitimate government of Valenwood - and this same Mede Empire did not react. After that the Aldmeri Dominion were quiet for 70 years and closed off from the rest of Tamriel. They re-emerged in 4E100 to restore the moons and end the Void Nights(so they claim), following which they managed to win over Elsweyr and the empire did nothing.

Basically, the Empire has been losing provinces ever since the Tiber Septim line ended, starting with the most 'non-cyrodilic' culture. Black Marsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr.

 

Titus Mede II took over in 4E168 and the Aldmeri Dominion sent him the Ultimatum with every blade head in Valenwood and Summerset Isles on a platter in 4E171. Basically his claim to fame as Emperor is losing Hammerfell, then the Great War (or winning it, whichever POV suits you) and now barely hanging on to Skyrim with the skin of his teeth.

 

 

The reason for the White-gold concordat is quite simple, both sides suffered great millitary loses in the war, but while Dominion lands where untouched, the empire, mainly Cyrodill got trashed and the imperial city sacked. The empire wouldn't the able to mount a proper invasion without reinforcements and supplies, so aquiring the time to rebuild was paramount.

Remember that Titus Mede is a Talos worshiper who gave everything he had to beat the Thalmor.

 

The empire doesn't need to invade Alinor, the Empire just needed to drive out the Thalmor from it's territory which it has failed to do, treaty or no. Hammerfell managed it. Why couldn't they?

 

If you like the stormcloaks, think being a rebel is cool, fine. But you can't just reshape the lore and take in-game propaganda seriously to suit your position, while turning a blind eye to the fact that you're doing exactly what the Thalmor want you to do.

 

If you like the Empire, think being pseudo-Roman is cool, fine. But you can't reshape the lore and take in-game propaganda seriously to suit your position while turning a blind eye to the fact that you're doing exactly what the Thalmor want you to do. Prolonging the civil war is in Thalmor interest, liberating Skyrim quickly and decisively, throwing Tullius, BFF Elenwen and Co. out of Skyrim isn't. It's admitted as much in the Dossier.

 

Religion is an important part of life in Skyrim and I get that, but is it worth tearing the nation apart with a civil war? They could always worship in secret, which is what people were doing with no real cosequences until Ulfric made a fuss about it. Had everyone in Skyrim just continued to worship Talos in secret and keep their heads on, the Thalmor may not have started enforcing the ban as strictly as they do now. In short, I think the Stormcloaks over-reacted hugely. They're passionate about what they believe in which is all well and good, but they're not looking at the big picture. A civil war does no good to anyone except the Thalmor. Had they managed to keep a cool head and think ahead, Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole would be much better off against a very dangerous and insidious threat to not only Tamriel but all of Mundus.

 

Obviously most people don't know just how bad the Thalmor issue actually is, but I still don't see how any reasonable person can think a civil war will make the situation any better. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good, the Stormcloaks seem to be unable or unwilling to understand this.

 

The problem with this is, that religion is a subjective thing. It may not be important to you, it's not that important to me but it sure is worth fighting and dying for for a lot of nords. By the same token, why fight for Hammerfell territory? Is chunks of land more important that tearing a nation apart? Life under Thalmor rule may not be that bad - the Khajit are doing fine apparently. It's about self-determination, it's about freedom and liberty. It's about the principle that I may not love your favourite god as much as you do, friend but by [insert your own favourite divine] I'll fight to the death for your right to do so. Then there's also the whole speculation that the Thalmor are systematically dismantling Talos worship in order to undermine Lorkhan, tear down Mundus itself so they can ascend to Aetherius and take their rightful place among the divines. And that's why they are not content with letting people worship in secret either. Ondelomar in Markarth tasks you to find evidence against Onmund the skald by ransacking his house and finding his hidden, very secret amulet of Talos. Then there's the murdered Talos worshippers at a remote shrine east of Riverwood and there's Agent Lorcalin as well. Plenty of evidence the Thalmor aren't just interested in a paper ban but are determined to enforce it.

 

Secondly, I've heard this argument before - that the Thalmor only came down to enforce the ban after Ulfric made a stink about it and before that, there was a golden era of peace where Nords could worship Talos in the privacy of their homes and the Empire was united and the Thalmor were happy. When was this era?

The Imperial city was occupied by General Naarifin in 4E174 and that is when the Reachmen revolted and occupied Markarth. The WGC was signed in 4E175, Ulfric was sent to re-take Markarth from the Forsworn in 4E176. He is still a legionnaire at this point. He negotiates with Jarl Igmund to retake the city on the promise that it would then be a bastion of Talos worship in defiance of the WGC. A hose of disgruntled nords organise into the militia that would later be called Stormcloaks on the base of this promise and retake Markarth. Then the Empire reneges, Igmund capitulates and thalmor are sent to oversee the court thereafter. Ulfric is court martialed and sent to prison for an unknown amount of time. His father dies while he's in prison. When he is finally released, he becomes Jarl of Windhelm. He claims that he was made Jarl because people wanted someone to stand up for Talos. He approaches Torygg to press for independence. He is refused. In 4E201 he travels to Solitude and challenges him to a duel. On his way back, he's captured by the imperials and brought to Helgen. It seems to me the Nords, led by Ulfric have been rejecting the WGC and fighting for Talos from day one - just like Hammerfell.

 

You could make the argument that had it not been for Ulfric, the legion would have ignored Talos worship in Skyrim and I can see that happening but I don't see any evidence that the Thalmor would have ignored it as well. They seem pretty determined to stamp it out. Secondly, it's been nearly 30 years since the Great War and we have yet to see any evidence that the Empire has been preparing for round 2 - they're licking their wounds, I get it but 30 years of wound licking? Instead, the Thalmor have become endemic in the Empire. It's pipe dream to think the Empire is ever going to fight them.

[Lachdonin]

First, i would like to point out that Blackmarsh did not succede from the Empire are revenge for slavery. With the exception of Morrowind (which was granted greater autonomy than the other provinces in return for giving the Numidium to Tiber Septim) slavery was illegal in the Empire. The Argonians succeded at the behest of the Hist, who are the absolute rulers of Blackmarsh. They have such a control over the province, in fact, that its presence within the Empire can only be attributed to their will, as we have seen that they are fully capable to turning regular Argonians into living engines of destruction.

 

Second, the situation with the Thalmor Embasy in Skyrim is perfectly normal of rival powers. Throughout history, foreign, ambasidorial individuals have maintained large estates inside rival countries. Take, for instance, the massive Spanish presence in the 16th century, despite the fact that England and Spain were officially enemies (except, of course, during the marriage of Cathrine and Henry). Just because there are Thalmor dignitaries and soldiers in Castle Dour does not mean they are in command of the Legion, and any arguements to support that is a flight of fancy.

 

Third, and i'm skimmming here becuase all these arguements have been made before, and quite frankly i am getting tired of having to repeat myself. The issue of the Markarth Incedent. There is nothing to suggest that Ulfric was still in the legion at this time, and in fact the book The Markarth Incident and the words of several NPC's indicate he was not. In fact, it seems Ulfric went to reclaim the city from the Reachmen of his own accord, then held the city hostage from it's Jarl in exchange for the promise to reinstate the worship of Talos. We also know from sources like Hadvar that it wasn't at this point that Ulfric stood on his soap box, as it would be many years before any attention was called to the continued worship of Talos. You are also mistaken in the assertion that Ulfric pressed Torygg for independance, as we are told straight up, had he done so, Torygg would have sided with him. We also know the rounding up of Talos worshipers is a recent development, caused by the increased fuss over the situation, making the Stormcloaks as causially and morally responsible as the Empire.

 

Fourth, the period of time which has elapsed... As i mentioned earlier (can't remember if it was this thread or another) in a rather lengthy post about agriculture, battles are not good for fields. We know that the Empire's subsistance infastructure was obliterated during the Great War, with tens of thousands being killed on what had previously been farm land, the the Thalmor having a full year to wreak whatever magic havoc they wanted. When you are talking about the TES world, you have to realise that they are conducting almost industrial scale warfare on a midieval economy. Even with ain industrial economy, it took us 20 years to recover from WWI. Even with the assitance of magic (which the Empire is sorely lacking with the inefectual replacements for the Mages Guild) the recovery for the scale of devistation caused by the Great War would take decades. In all likelyhood, they once again have the military might to conduct a war, but i would be surprised if they still have the supply abundance required for foreign campaigns.

 

Talos is not part of the equation in this, regardless of what the Stormcloaks beleive. This is Ulfric's bid for power, using the religious situation to garner support. Don't try to confuse the issue by turning this into a greater ethical debate, because both the Empire and the Stormcloaks are knee deep in their own filth. This is an issue about the lesser of two evils, and while the outlook for the Empire is bleak, the Stormcloaks don't stand a chance.