MontbelloKnight Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 were already starting to write books for in the game so you can find them on bookshelves and in chests and in peoples homes. the book explains the origin if the musket and why it was produced and also how. That's not a very good idea, it seems like a attempt to roughly force the musket into lore-friendliness. It is not in the common people's interests to read a book about modern weaponry, in fact it is not in the common people's interest to read at all, in a rural medieval society like that of Skyrim they should not even know how to read. It is very powerful and valuable knowledge, so whoever invents the weapon, would naturally keep it's secrets concealed, so that he is the only one that can get rich by selling the weapon to those in power. And the state who purchases it would kill to keep it away from the hands of it's enemies. So having a book like that would certainly mean death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RxHipster Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Anyone who is interested in doing this as a mod PM me so we can set something up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BladerRavinger92 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 From a strategic and gameplay sense the stage has already been largely set for simple guns, for the most part this is the role the crossbow fills. It's expensive, slow, powerful, heavy, technically complex and it punches through armor. I don't see what would be so crazy about a gun, which would possess all those features only yet moreso. Probably, like the recent crossbow designs, this would be an experiment carried out by a single genius, a scholar of Dwemer technology. Maybe in the end the device is deemed too volatile, delicate, and/or expensive for widespread military use. But that doesn't mean you can't shoot some fools in the face in the meantime. but why in over 700 years, with them having the tech to make guns in the first place (cannons on a ship in morrowind) has no one made a hand gun? and before anyone mentions magicka, shush, not everyone is a good with magic, and not everyone wants to use magic. so in reality them that didnt want magic would have a gun. in 700 years the only advancement thats been made (combat wise) is the crossbow, i think its time that we had a gun of some sore, in reality (within 700 years) we went from swords and bows to shot guns, flame throwers, tanks and bloody machine guns. now im not saying lets build planes and tanks and take over the world..... im just saying, lets make the first step to basic explosive projectile weapons. these wont be readily available in skyrim, there will be a full quest line before you even have access to the gun, never mind the recipe to make your own, we shall make a stand alone version, but im going to suggest to the team that we nerf the stand alone version. so its only the strength of dwarven or something, maybe elven. but the full version will be around deadric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 but why in over 700 years, with them having the tech to make guns in the first place (cannons on a ship in morrowind) has no one made a hand gun? and before anyone mentions magicka, shush, not everyone is a good with magic, and not everyone wants to use magic. so in reality them that didnt want magic would have a gun. in 700 years the only advancement thats been made (combat wise) is the crossbow, i think its time that we had a gun of some sore, in reality (within 700 years) we went from swords and bows to shot guns, flame throwers, tanks and bloody machine guns. First, the Crossbow was in Morrowind, so... Yeah, it's nothing new. Second, human civilization went close to 10,000 years between the development of metalurgy and the creation of gunpowder. In fact, if you pick any 700 year period, at random, you will probably see minimal technological change. Yes, in the last 500 years we've seen some radical changes in technology, but that last 500 does not, in any way, represent the progression scale of human kind. Third, again, the development of firearms, in our world, was linked almost exclusively to the rich and powerful. Guns gave a military advantage, so those in power poured unbeleivable resources (and not a few lives) into making them more reliable, more accurate and more simple to produce. In the Elder Scrolls world, they don't offer any advantage beyond what magic can do, and in most cases even less. A Count, Baron or Jarl would rather spend their money on a dozen battlemages which WORK than develop a weapons which MAY work. It doesn't matter if the common rabble don't have access to magic, because their too stupid or uneducated to figure out firearms anyway. In Skyrim, you do however have one person who would prefer any non-magic advantage. The Jarl of Winterhold. I'm sure he'd look for anything to level the playing field with magic, though the question is, does he have the resources to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BladerRavinger92 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 but why in over 700 years, with them having the tech to make guns in the first place (cannons on a ship in morrowind) has no one made a hand gun? and before anyone mentions magicka, shush, not everyone is a good with magic, and not everyone wants to use magic. so in reality them that didnt want magic would have a gun. in 700 years the only advancement thats been made (combat wise) is the crossbow, i think its time that we had a gun of some sore, in reality (within 700 years) we went from swords and bows to shot guns, flame throwers, tanks and bloody machine guns. First, the Crossbow was in Morrowind, so... Yeah, it's nothing new. Second, human civilization went close to 10,000 years between the development of metalurgy and the creation of gunpowder. In fact, if you pick any 700 year period, at random, you will probably see minimal technological change. Yes, in the last 500 years we've seen some radical changes in technology, but that last 500 does not, in any way, represent the progression scale of human kind. Third, again, the development of firearms, in our world, was linked almost exclusively to the rich and powerful. Guns gave a military advantage, so those in power poured unbeleivable resources (and not a few lives) into making them more reliable, more accurate and more simple to produce. In the Elder Scrolls world, they don't offer any advantage beyond what magic can do, and in most cases even less. A Count, Baron or Jarl would rather spend their money on a dozen battlemages which WORK than develop a weapons which MAY work. It doesn't matter if the common rabble don't have access to magic, because their too stupid or uneducated to figure out firearms anyway. In Skyrim, you do however have one person who would prefer any non-magic advantage. The Jarl of Winterhold. I'm sure he'd look for anything to level the playing field with magic, though the question is, does he have the resources to? Direct Quote "the first guns were made sometime around the mid 1300s to the early 1400s" ok so il go with 1300s...... 700 years later, year 2000. what guns do we have now? thanks point proven Answer to num 3. some people dont use ore even like magicka, so they would have much use for a gun. many people would have found a gun a great master piece that made hunting and defending yourself easier, so them people would have done there own work and every gun in the game would be unique as each man has made his own mods and finally, there is a way to fit the gun into lore, in the 200year gap between oblivion and skyrim, thats what were doing right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BladerRavinger92 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Update, more proof 1232: The Chinese who invented gunpowder (black powder) first used it in a weapon - gunpowder filled tubes aka rockets.1364: First recorded use of a firearm - shooter lit wicks by hand that ingnited gunpowder that was loaded into the gun barrel.1400s: Matchlock guns - first mechanically firing of guns. Wicks were now attached to a clamp that sprang into gunpowder that was placed in a "flash pan".1509: Wheel lock guns - wicks were replaced the wheel lock that generated a spark for igniting the gunpowder.1630: Flintlock guns - the flintlock did two things mechanically, it opened the lid of the flash pan and provided an igniting spark.1825: Percussion-cap guns invented by Reverend John Forsyth - firing mechanism no longer uses flash pan, a tube lead straight into the gun barrel, the tupe had an exposive cap on it that exploded when struck1830: Back action lock1835: Colt revolver - first mass-produced, multi-shot, revolving firearms1840: Pin-fire cartridges1850: Shotguns1859: Full rim-fire cartridge1860: Spencer repeating carbine patented1861: Breech loaded guns1862: Gatling Gun1869: Center-fire cartridge1871: Cartridge revolver1873: Winchester rifle1877: Double-action revolver1879: Lee box magazine patented1892: Automatic handguns invented by Joseph Laumann1893: Borchardt pistol - automatic handgun with a separate magazine in the grip1903: First automatic rifle a Winchester. Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Clearly, you miss the meaning of the word 'Random'. Let's pick.. oh... Say 1200bce-500bce. 1200... Well most of the world is in the Bronze age (except for the Americas)... 500... Oh look, still the bronze age for most of the world, but we've figured out how to at least melt Iron in the Medeteranian. lets pick another... 400ce-1100ce. Ah, the Iron Age... Some of Asia is experementing with steel, but for the most part they too use Iron. Its century after century of dirt, swords and bows. in fact, the most interesting invention during this period is the recurve-longbow. The fact is, it's only been in the last 600-700 years you have seen a rapid progression of technology. Compare that to almost 200,000 years of history as Homo Sapiens, and you may start to understand how stagnant 'development' can be. And again, for the magic vs gunpowder issue. Peasents and farmers did not create guns. Neither did farmers, fishermen, soldiers or regular, every day homeowners. It was wealthy people who paid others to sit there, over long periods, to create a reliable weapon out of something which explods. If there is no insentive for said alchemists and engineers to work on the gun (ie, no ones paying them) their not going to do it. And when people of wealth and power can just pay a single mage to do what a regiment of rifleman can, why bother developing the gun at all? Even today, it is extremely uncommon to find a functional, home made firearm. Do you really think a borderline peasent in a fuedal society (particularly one in the middle of a civil war) is going to find the time to make a gun, even if he has any freaking idea what it is and how to do it? To put it another way... In order to design a firearm, you require knowlege, at least, in metalurgy and chemestry (alchemy, in this case). They then have to prevent themselves from being killed by their prototypes, something which tends to be more luck than skill. And all in a world where it's already been established (out of the games, and in the actual lore) that just about anyone can learn some simple magic. Where's the insentive? Guns are reliable when it comes to hunting until the invention of rifeling (most american settlers used bows instead... hell, even in our world we thought they were unreliable for centuries, and thats with the effort, investment and mass manufacture). Your entire arguement assumes 6 things. 1, that guns are easy to make, which is false. 2, that the rapid development of technology is a given, also false. Three, that the common citizen would be impressed at the power of a gun even from the onset, once again false. 4, technologic development in Tamriel depends on the demand of clearly educated masses, Reeeaaaalllly false. 5, the aforementioned masses have the unity and collective resources to persue the development of technologies without the support of their lords, False and probably false. Finally, it assumes that in the face of widespread use of Magic, those in power, those responsible for forcing the development of firearms in our world, would quickly turn to primitive guns because of their POTENTIAL, as opposed to the reality of their... well... crappyness. Hell, we know that the Redguard largely abandoned using gunpowder in favor of mainstream magic. Face it, your arguement holds absolutely no water. I've already given suggestions on how to make guns lore-friendly. if you aren't concerned with it being lore-friendly, by all means, put in howetzers. If, however, you want it to fit into the Elder Scrolls universe, no amount of real-world timelines are going to matter a lick. You have to look at it from an in-universe perspective, and the simple fact is, theres no drive for that kind of technoloic development from the lords (well, except the Jarl of Winterhold) and the common folk lack the means. That gives you 3 basic options. Ancient relics (either Dwemer of Redguard), a cloistered religious order, guild etc (they would have had to have a long time to develop them, as again the means of developing them now isn't there) or Winterhold (in which case they would be a new development -possibly based off the aforementioned relics- and quite primitive) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BladerRavinger92 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) Clearly, you miss the meaning of the word 'Random'. Let's pick.. oh... Say 1200bce-500bce. 1200... Well most of the world is in the Bronze age (except for the Americas)... 500... Oh look, still the bronze age for most of the world, but we've figured out how to at least melt Iron in the Medeteranian. lets pick another... 400ce-1100ce. Ah, the Iron Age... Some of Asia is experementing with steel, but for the most part they too use Iron. Its century after century of dirt, swords and bows. in fact, the most interesting invention during this period is the recurve-longbow. The fact is, it's only been in the last 600-700 years you have seen a rapid progression of technology. Compare that to almost 200,000 years of history as Homo Sapiens, and you may start to understand how stagnant 'development' can be. And again, for the magic vs gunpowder issue. Peasents and farmers did not create guns. Neither did farmers, fishermen, soldiers or regular, every day homeowners. It was wealthy people who paid others to sit there, over long periods, to create a reliable weapon out of something which explods. If there is no insentive for said alchemists and engineers to work on the gun (ie, no ones paying them) their not going to do it. And when people of wealth and power can just pay a single mage to do what a regiment of rifleman can, why bother developing the gun at all? Even today, it is extremely uncommon to find a functional, home made firearm. Do you really think a borderline peasent in a fuedal society (particularly one in the middle of a civil war) is going to find the time to make a gun, even if he has any freaking idea what it is and how to do it? To put it another way... In order to design a firearm, you require knowlege, at least, in metalurgy and chemestry (alchemy, in this case). They then have to prevent themselves from being killed by their prototypes, something which tends to be more luck than skill. And all in a world where it's already been established (out of the games, and in the actual lore) that just about anyone can learn some simple magic. Where's the insentive? Guns are reliable when it comes to hunting until the invention of rifeling (most american settlers used bows instead... hell, even in our world we thought they were unreliable for centuries, and thats with the effort, investment and mass manufacture). Your entire arguement assumes 6 things. 1, that guns are easy to make, which is false. 2, that the rapid development of technology is a given, also false. Three, that the common citizen would be impressed at the power of a gun even from the onset, once again false. 4, technologic development in Tamriel depends on the demand of clearly educated masses, Reeeaaaalllly false. 5, the aforementioned masses have the unity and collective resources to persue the development of technologies without the support of their lords, False and probably false. Finally, it assumes that in the face of widespread use of Magic, those in power, those responsible for forcing the development of firearms in our world, would quickly turn to primitive guns because of their POTENTIAL, as opposed to the reality of their... well... crappyness. Hell, we know that the Redguard largely abandoned using gunpowder in favor of mainstream magic. Face it, your arguement holds absolutely no water. I've already given suggestions on how to make guns lore-friendly. if you aren't concerned with it being lore-friendly, by all means, put in howetzers. If, however, you want it to fit into the Elder Scrolls universe, no amount of real-world timelines are going to matter a lick. You have to look at it from an in-universe perspective, and the simple fact is, theres no drive for that kind of technoloic development from the lords (well, except the Jarl of Winterhold) and the common folk lack the means. That gives you 3 basic options. Ancient relics (either Dwemer of Redguard), a cloistered religious order, guild etc (they would have had to have a long time to develop them, as again the means of developing them now isn't there) or Winterhold (in which case they would be a new development -possibly based off the aforementioned relics- and quite primitive) im not even wasting my time reading that, you can take your random and sit on it. im talking the sort of era that skyrim is set in, of course bc is going to have near zero tech developments, back in the days when we only just managed to light a fire the people were dumb, the kids had 2 years of school, in that time they were taught to hunt. them times have 0, thats ZERO, relavent to anything were talking about. stop trying to sound smart and better then me, if you cant even keep it relavent. ok so i read a little bit, ok so in the bronse and iron ages, did you know how to make black powder? or 'gun powder' and how long did it take them, from discovering gun powder to using it as a weapon? it was very fast, explosives, then 100 years later instead of rockets it was a projectile weapon, a gun gunpowder has been around in the games for at least 500 years (im tired and forgetting what i was reading out the tes wiki and lore) but it was used as an explosive, now its about time it was used in a gun after over 500 years, and in reality it took us way less then that to have many different types of guns, within 400 years of the first hand gun we had a gatling gun, come on, stop blowing smoke and shhhhhh, if your not happy with the idea then leave this thread Edited September 2, 2012 by BladerRavinger92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BladerRavinger92 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 i can argue with you about the game lore till we grow old, im studying it very hard to find if there is anything that can stop me making this muskets, but i know theres nothing. and i can argue world history for just as long, as history is one of the subjects i failed at school being as i was very bored because it was very easy, so i know enough to make you hair curl. and if i look around here somewhere i have a few of my Granadads things, the sort of things that during the war he would have been shot for even looking at never mind smuggling them out of the country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontbelloKnight Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) Well said Blader, just put an end to it. We already started working on it so, there is little point in keep arguing. We have work to do. Edited September 2, 2012 by Montbello Knight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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