Derailing the Railroads of Skyrim

[gsmanners]

I think what we want is to have choices. Maybe what would be good is to focus on the problems, and then maybe some solutions will become evident:

 

Main Quest: Alternate Start - Live Another Life (enough said).

 

Civil War: The fact that this quest exists at all is something I have a problem with.

 

Thieves Guild: "Listen to Brynjolf" gets stuck in your quest log, half the "Unusual Gems" are in places where it would seem natural and not in any way criminal to take them (but that doesn't stop Maul from assuming that you stole them), Goldenglow is surrounded by an impenetrable magic barrier (created by the mighty wizard Gaping Plot Hole), and Delphine seems to think that talking to Brynjolf is a good idea (one of her many stupid ideas).

 

Dark Brotherhood: "Talk to Aventus Aretino" gets stuck in your quest log. No one seems to think that it would be a good idea to throw Grelod into Riften jail despite her being infamous. Random assassins prove the DB's suicidal stupidity by the fact that Astrid keeps signing random death contracts (and then curiously never mentions any of this if you speak to her).

 

Companions: Thanks for helping us kill that giant. Not. Never mind the fact that the giant was half dead by the time I noticed, but no. You're totally not out of line for sassing me (and in the process, giving me a quest entry that I can't delete). Then, suddenly it's "Talk to Skjor," because we all know you want to become a werewolf. Right? Right? You don't? Well, see if we ever talk to you again. Never mind the fact that a bunch of other people (who have been here longer than me) aren't werewolves and they get jobs just fine. No. You HAVE to become one. It's not optional.

 

The Forsworn Conspiracy: Eltrys likes to think that you have an interest in his crazy ideas. Sadly, telling him to mind his own business leaves you with that quest stuck in your journal through no choice of your own. Not reading his note is not an option (the note is flagged as a quest item).

 

House of Horrors: An annoying Vigilent stands directly in the middle of a major pathway. This man is not only a coward and a weakling but is utterly bereft of any ability to remember when you tell him that you aren't interested in doing his job for him. Having helped him, you get the lovely reward of being mentally raped by Molag Bal (he is the daedric prince of rape, but still), and you don't get the option of simply deleting his idiotic quest from your journal.

 

In My Time of Need: Don't want this quest? That's fine. Just be prepared to be questioned by two Alik'r Warriors at the gate EVERY SINGLE TIME you enter Whiterun. That makes perfect sense, right?

 

Lost Legends: You've read the book? Well, now you just HAVE to know how it ends. And by know, I mean you need yet another quest through four dungeons and three (times two) bosses you have to defeat. All to get an amulet that is severely underpowered by the time you acquire it. Or maybe you just joined the College at Winterhold and found one of those curious writs. Either way, it's railroad time.

 

Red Eagle: Yet another book you have to be careful around. Don't worry, though. If you're clever, you can skip most of this and pretty much go straight to the end boss. After that, you can go to the dungeon and fight Red, himself (not nearly as tough as the guy you have to kill/pickpocket to get the thing you need in the first place). The problem with shoving a quest down your throat the moment you read a book is that it makes you gun shy about every book. It's a shame. There's so many good books in this game.

 

Pieces of the Past: Congratulations! You've started to get to the relatively fun and challenging part of the game. To celebrate, let's make sure you have "Visit the museum in Dawnstar" stuck in your quest log whether you want it or not. Funny that no one else seems to want to visit a museum dedicated to an infamous group of emperor murderers. How very odd.

 

Unfathomable Depths: Interesting fact: An Argonian endlessly wanders the Riften docks, talking to herself. If you go anywhere near (even in stealth mode) she will tell you that you must take this weird object to some old Dwemer ruin. You must! You MUST! Once again, no choice.

 

Lights Out!: Another interesting fact: An Argonian in Solitude endlessly tells himself, "I have a little work for you, stranger." Don't pity the poor insane fool or you will be railroaded into doing his dirty work. Hint: It involves crashing ships and pirates.

 

A Return To Your Roots: If you're ever in Blackreach, avoid the infamous Crimson Nirnroots. On top of being a vital component in some of the most vile poisons, they also infect you with an incurable illness that can only be cured by picking 29 more of the damn things. And they are pretty tough to find.

 

Boethiah's Calling: Merely becoming a formidable person is good enough to spur a suicidal lunatic into taunting and attacking you at random. Or maybe you just find that book about some laughably trite and pathetic daedric prince who decides that ruthless stupidity equals greatness. Either way, you're stuck with yet another entry in your journal through no choice of your own.

 

College of Winterhold: You HAVE to go here to learn about the Elder Scroll. Well, not really. But you HAVE to. And you HAVE to take Mirabelle's tour. And you HAVE to listen to Tolfdir's lecture. And you HAVE to stand right over there and keep your ward up. Wouldn't want to hurt somebody, would we? And you HAVE to go to Saarthal, etc. It's just one non-choice after another with this place. When Urag tells me I HAVE to go find those books that Orthorn stole, I'm usually thinking, "Okay. Enough's enough. I'm outta here."

[kryptopyr]

So I've been thinking about this a bit more, and while I don't have a clue how to edit the journal directly, I believe it might be possible to remove entries either by using a separate message box or a summoned NPC with dialogue options. I would probably go with a summoned actor versus a message box, due to the format limitations of Skyrim's message boxes. Also, I think using conditions on dialogue might be much more steamlined way to handle this than trying to use a single script. This wouldn't stop the quests from starting and getting logged in your journal initially, but it would allow you to summon a "secretary" to remove the entry for you.

 

My experience using the command SetObjectiveDisplayed is that it simply removes the displayed quest objective from the journal. If there was only one objective displayed for that quest, then it erases the quest entry as well. This doesn't stop the quest. The quest is still running and if you do complete the objective (regardless of whether or not the objective is currently displayed in your journal), the quest will advance to the next stage and you will probably get a new journal entry.

 

However, this could in some cases break the quest...if, for example, there are conditions that check whether or not an objective is displayed, this would then cause those conditions to fail. However, in most of the instances I've seen, conditions tend to check the quest stage, not the displayed objective. Which means this method could potentially declutter your journal while still maintaining the integrity of the quest. It would also be much less likely to cause conflicts or other issues since the mod wouldn't have to directly change the quests themselves.

 

It would still take quite a bit of work to do this if you wanted to include every quest, but it might be a way to delete some of the worst offenders without having to alter every quest individually.

[gsmanners]

No. No. Fixing it after the fact is what the console is for. With mods, you want to take the offending quests and change the offending portions so that they don't do the voodoo that they do. I personally think the best way to do this is by amputation. Just cut off the parts that shouldn't be there. It's quick and simple and relatively painless.

[kryptopyr]

Can you be more specific? What exactly do you want to have a mod do? Do you want to just completely delete those quests from the game? Delete the offending NPCs, so they can't give you the quest? Or do you want to completely rewrite each quest with more options and choices...basically creating an entirely new quest branch? I think we would all agree that having more choices and routes to complete a quest would be great, but there is a huge difference in the amount of effort required to implement these different solutions.

[StayFrosty05]

@kryptopyr.....Is it possible to maybe just start with greying out quests as failed if you say 'no'?....Such as the Daedric's, Brynjolf, the Aretino boy, Civil War sides, etc....There are two Paarthurnax choice Mods that grey out the 'Kill Paarthurnax' quest if you tell Delphine/Esburn where to get off, kill them or lie to them....I don't know anything about modding, but I am guessing (maybe foolishly) if that could be done for the Paarthurnax quest, it could also be done for answering 'No, not interested'...?

 

As for actually changing quests such as.... Bypassing Delphine....Destroying Black Briars, Silver Bloods....Destroying TG....etc....That is a much more complicated and much more involved ask.....maybe a slow moving project done over time, where it could possibly be done anyway....most likely with a team of willing modders?....Not all on one persons back, it's too much and unfair.

[kryptopyr]

I think it should be possible to force a "failed" quest instead of just removing the journal entry. I'm not certain, but it might require modding the individual quests if there isn't already a "failure" stage included in the vanilla quest. Regardless, it should definitely be possible. Of course, doing it this way would almost certainly make it impossible to change your mind and complete the quest later, but maybe this is this what you're wanting?

 

I'm actually interested in making alternatives to a few quests (dealing with Grelod is one), but I'll be honest, I just don't have a lot of time to mod right now and those mods aren't high priorities for me.

[StayFrosty05]

I think it should be possible to force a "failed" quest instead of just removing the journal entry. I'm not certain, but it might require modding the individual quests if there isn't already a "failure" stage included in the vanilla quest. Regardless, it should definitely be possible. Of course, doing it this way would almost certainly make it impossible to change your mind and complete the quest later, but maybe this is this what you're wanting?

 

I'm actually interested in making alternatives to a few quests (dealing with Grelod is one), but I'll be honest, I just don't have a lot of time to mod right now and those mods aren't high priorities for me.

 

Yes, it is definitely what I know I would like to see...it could even make the decisions you make at the time more relevant...the impact being greater with the answer you give, you would have to be sure of your decision before moving forward with your answer....I would like that myself, relevance in my RP decisions....would be wonderful in fact.... :happy:

 

Yes, I can certainly understand actual quest changes being a big job....but if or when you decide to tackle the Grelod issue, I would be very interested myself and maybe hopefully even learned something about modding myself then and could possibly be of use to you in some way?...I am trying to learn modding, just am very Tech-No-Logic.... :(

[IsharaMeradin]

I'm not sure if I completely understand this thread. I did read the whole thing.

 

From what I gather there are some who feel like they are being pressured to do quests simply cause of an entry in the QUEST LOG. Well, its a possible quest that you can do and so it's put in its rightful place after you learn about it. Doesn't mean you have to do it.

 

If you are wanting a JOURNAL LOG, you'll have to look toward mods that will allow you to write one and keep it updated outside of the game and then you can read it while in game to refresh your mind as to what your character has been doing. Then you can treat the QUEST LOG not as a JOURNAL LOG but rather more of what it is a list of things that you can do. Kinda like the want ads where people are seeking someone to do a task for them...

 

Here's a journal mod you could try and then you wouldn't have to access the quest log at all (except to turn off the forced quest markers -- unless there is a tweak for that too)

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/8892

 

Personally, I think that might be a better solution. No need to actually hack the game to prevent things from showing up in the log. And frees the modders up to look into alternatives to accessing parts of inaccessible places that are necessary to complete the main quest line.

[StayFrosty05]

 

 

Lights Out!: Another interesting fact: An Argonian in Solitude endlessly tells himself, "I have a little work for you, stranger." Don't pity the poor insane fool or you will be railroaded into doing his dirty work. Hint: It involves crashing ships and pirates.

 

 

 

I have been thinking about checking out his essential status and just forcibly remove (kill) that pain in the *ss like I did the TG from my game....his constant "I have some work if your interested traveler" bugs the hell out of me....even the Executioner wants a go at his scrawny neck....would love to oblige the Executioner on that one, but sadly it's not possible....the shame is the Official Guide states that you can in fact dob this guy into the guards after you have spoken with him....but I can't seem to find that option, have tried a number of ways without actually resorting to sinking the boat.

[StayFrosty05]

I'm not sure if I completely understand this thread. I did read the whole thing.

 

From what I gather there are some who feel like they are being pressured to do quests simply cause of an entry in the QUEST LOG. Well, its a possible quest that you can do and so it's put in its rightful place after you learn about it. Doesn't mean you have to do it.

 

If you are wanting a JOURNAL LOG, you'll have to look toward mods that will allow you to write one and keep it updated outside of the game and then you can read it while in game to refresh your mind as to what your character has been doing. Then you can treat the QUEST LOG not as a JOURNAL LOG but rather more of what it is a list of things that you can do. Kinda like the want ads where people are seeking someone to do a task for them...

 

Here's a journal mod you could try and then you wouldn't have to access the quest log at all (except to turn off the forced quest markers -- unless there is a tweak for that too)

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/8892

 

Personally, I think that might be a better solution. No need to actually hack the game to prevent things from showing up in the log. And frees the modders up to look into alternatives to accessing parts of inaccessible places that are necessary to complete the main quest line.

 

Your not understanding this thread...It's about making choices count....It's about not being continuously harassed by various NPC's.... It's about having more freedom of choice in the open world platform....And having decisions matter...It's about not being forced along un-necessary paths....It's about being able to act on information received in game, via general talk around town, your own discoveries, etc....I think that just about covers it, please speak up anyone if I have missed anything.