Derailing the Railroads of Skyrim

[IsharaMeradin]

I guess then since I don't understand this thread... even tho there are posts upon posts how the quest entries are not liked (and I did suggest a viable alternative to that problem)

 

I'll just go before I get bashed like the other guy who gave his opinions.

[kryptopyr]

@IsharaMeradin

Thanks for the link. I don't think it's something I would personally want, but it looks like an interesting mod. I hope no one would bash you for simply asking for clarification and attempting to offer a solution. I only took offense when the previous guy made a comment deriding the OP's idea, not simply expressing his own preference. It's completely okay if this style of play doesn't appeal to you...a lot of what's been discussed on this topic doesn't really appeal to me...but I do respect that for some people it is a critical issue. Besides which, I think it's an interesting discussion.

 

I feel that there are a lot of very different opinions being tossed around (not in itself a bad thing), but I think some of the confusion stems from people discussing somewhat different issues. Some of those issues overlap, but it depends a bit on how you look at it. I'll do my best to explain what I think the issues being discussed are. I'll probably get at least part of it wrong, but others can (and I'm sure they will) correct me.

 

I believe these are the issues being discussed:

1) Journal clutter - having quests in your journal that you don't want to do. In my case, I don't really feel pressured to complete them, it's more of an organizational annoyance. I don't personally alter my gameplay in any way to try to avoid these journal entries, I just wish there were a simple way to remove them if I want to. In a way, I see it as similar to carrying around a lot of quest objects. Even if the quest objects are 0 weight, it just annoys me to have to continue to carry them around (there are some items I've had to lug around for 10-20 levels just because I've yet to encounter the related quest). It's just one more item I have to scroll past in order to get to the items I actually want to use. The journal entries are the same way. The ones that I don't want to do pile up and become visual clutter when I'm looking for the quest entries that I actually do want to do.

 

2) Quests are initiated automatically - While I just see it as journal clutter, others feel that by having the journal entries they have been forced to start a quest they don't want to do. I don't personally feel that I'm forced to do the quest just because it is in my journal, but some feel that it is contrary to their character to even have the quest active and logged in their journal. By having the quest initiate, they have essentially been forced to participate in the quest.

 

3) Moral quandaries - If you are attempting to role-play a specific type of character, then some quests are impossible to complete while remaining true to your character. In many cases there is no way to know ahead of time whether a given quest will be morally acceptable to your character. In some cases, this doesn't become apparent until you are already fairly involved in the quest.

 

4) Lack of options - In most cases there is a lack of real options on how to complete a given quest. So once you do discover that the quest you've been given suddenly demands that you kill someone in cold blood, and your courageous knight-in-shining-armor can't stomach the thought of doing that, there generally are only two options: A) complete the quest despite having to take actions that are contrary to the nature of your character or B) just walk away, the quest remains uncompleted, and you then spend the rest of the game avoiding it. In a few cases, you aren't even given the option to walk away.

Edited September 2, 2012 by kryptopyr

[kryptopyr]

Yes, I can certainly understand actual quest changes being a big job....but if or when you decide to tackle the Grelod issue, I would be very interested myself and maybe hopefully even learned something about modding myself then and could possibly be of use to you in some way?...I am trying to learn modding, just am very Tech-No-Logic.... :(

 

I haven't been modding very long. Actually one of the reasons that I find this sort of mod appealing is that I really enjoy making them. I've found that they tend to be a great way to learn. A lot of the quests that have been mentioned would be fairly simple to correct, and would be great mods to experiment with and learn from. Pick a quest and look it up in the CK. Read a tutorial on quest construction, then look at how the vanilla quest is set up. Most of what I know has come from deconstructing vanilla quests in order to figure out how they work. Call me weird but I actually enjoy deconstructing mods about as much as I enjoy creating new ones. It's all one big puzzle and all you need to do is figure out how the pieces fit together. :)

 

I approach more complex ideas the same way. For example, if/when I decide to try to create more options for Grelod, what I plan to do is look at the initial Thieves Guild quest, when the guard arrests Brand-shei and takes him to jail. I would use that quest as a guide to try to structure a similar arrest scene for Grelod. Or possibly use an intimidate or persuade option to convince her to leave...again, I would first find a vanilla example to copy. If I do decide to work on this quest, I'll let you know. I wouldn't mind working together on it.

[AndrewOverload519]

A suggestion regarding the College of Winterhold: Make it so that faction's questline would not start until you actually talk to Mirabelle Ervine. That way, you would be able to progress through the main questline, and Dawnguard's questline, without having to stick a whole series of events in your journal. Unfortunately, without a lot of extensive modding you would still need to do the College of Winterhold questline in order to complete the Gauldur Amulet, collect all of the Dragon Priest Masks and whatnot, but I couldn't really think of any better solution.

[gsmanners]

4) Lack of options - In most cases there is a lack of real options on how to complete a given quest. So once you do discover that the quest you've been given suddenly demands that you kill someone in cold blood, and your courageous knight-in-shining-armor can't stomach the thought of doing that, there generally are only two options: A) complete the quest despite having to take actions that are contrary to the nature of your character or B) just walk away, the quest remains uncompleted, and you then spend the rest of the game avoiding it. In a few cases, you aren't even given the option to walk away.

 

I think this is the primary problem. The other issues can be addressed by simply giving players more options, somehow.

[gsmanners]

Can you be more specific? What exactly do you want to have a mod do? Do you want to just completely delete those quests from the game? Delete the offending NPCs, so they can't give you the quest? Or do you want to completely rewrite each quest with more options and choices...basically creating an entirely new quest branch? I think we would all agree that having more choices and routes to complete a quest would be great, but there is a huge difference in the amount of effort required to implement these different solutions.

 

I'm suggesting to you an approach, not a precise method. Precise methods depend on lots of testing and experience, and you can't really know what the best specific solution is until you're down in it, so to speak. This has been my experience, anyway.

 

I guess if you want a more plain and clear answer, I find that what we are presented with is extremely linear but filled with deadwood. I think the designers of these Bethesda games like to pad out everything (dialogue as well as quest objectives) because that's how they get paid. By the raw number of words or objectives they add to the quests. Cutting some of the junk is a good idea, I think, and gives you more opportunities to present the player with options.

 

The exact procedure is something we could talk about over the next few months or however long you want to devote to this project. A project like this wouldn't just be completed in an afternoon. It takes many weeks (at least) to fix these types of errors.

[StayFrosty05]

@IsharaMeradin

Thanks for the link. I don't think it's something I would personally want, but it looks like an interesting mod. I hope no one would bash you for simply asking for clarification and attempting to offer a solution. I only took offense when the previous guy made a comment deriding the OP's idea, not simply expressing his own preference. It's completely okay if this style of play doesn't appeal to you...a lot of what's been discussed on this topic doesn't really appeal to me...but I do respect that for some people it is a critical issue. Besides which, I think it's an interesting discussion.

 

I feel that there are a lot of very different opinions being tossed around (not in itself a bad thing), but I think some of the confusion stems from people discussing somewhat different issues. Some of those issues overlap, but it depends a bit on how you look at it. I'll do my best to explain what I think the issues being discussed are. I'll probably get at least part of it wrong, but others can (and I'm sure they will) correct me.

 

I believe these are the issues being discussed:

1) Journal clutter - having quests in your journal that you don't want to do. In my case, I don't really feel pressured to complete them, it's more of an organizational annoyance. I don't personally alter my gameplay in any way to try to avoid these journal entries, I just wish there were a simple way to remove them if I want to. In a way, I see it as similar to carrying around a lot of quest objects. Even if the quest objects are 0 weight, it just annoys me to have to continue to carry them around (there are some items I've had to lug around for 10-20 levels just because I've yet to encounter the related quest). It's just one more item I have to scroll past in order to get to the items I actually want to use. The journal entries are the same way. The ones that I don't want to do pile up and become visual clutter when I'm looking for the quest entries that I actually do want to do.

 

2) Quests are initiated automatically - While I just see it as journal clutter, others feel that by having the journal entries they have been forced to start a quest they don't want to do. I don't personally feel that I'm forced to do the quest just because it is in my journal, but some feel that it is contrary to their character to even have the quest active and logged in their journal. By having the quest initiate, they have essentially been forced to participate in the quest.

 

3) Moral quandaries - If you are attempting to role-play a specific type of character, then some quests are impossible to complete while remaining true to your character. In many cases there is no way to know ahead of time whether a given quest will be morally acceptable to your character. In some cases, this doesn't become apparent until you are already fairly involved in the quest.

 

4) Lack of options - In most cases there is a lack of real options on how to complete a given quest. So once you do discover that the quest you've been given suddenly demands that you kill someone in cold blood, and your courageous knight-in-shining-armor can't stomach the thought of doing that, there generally are only two options: A) complete the quest despite having to take actions that are contrary to the nature of your character or B) just walk away, the quest remains uncompleted, and you then spend the rest of the game avoiding it. In a few cases, you aren't even given the option to walk away.

 

A very good example that covers all of these issues in one fell swoop would be the 'Molag Bal' Quest.....Firstly, the Vigilant won't take 'No' for an answer....your immediately dragged into dialog with him if you accidentally get too close and this will continue to happen unless you either a) Carefully watch your step and make sure you go nowhere near him or....b) Relent and enter the house with him.....

 

If you finally relent (in my case, just to finally get rid of him), you are forced to kill him and consort with 'Molag Bal'.....You can not leave the house without following these steps.

 

You can tell 'Molag Bal' to take a long walk off a short jetty, but the quest to do his filthy deed for him is still locked in your journal....apparently 'No' means 'Yes' in Bethesda speak.

 

And so you choose to ignore another addition to the clutter in your journal and go on your merry way....but that's not so easy either....because if you choose to explore the Reach further you will of course inevitably run afoul of Forsworn encampments and eventually run into this Priest Molag Bal is gunning for (my hubby even found that Priest caged with the Sibil...Dibella Quest....she was standing behind him and hubby couldn't activate her until after he had dealt with the Priest...now THAT is railroading extreme right there)...as for me, I haven't had hubbies experience thank god...but I do often inevitably run into this guy...I like the Reach...and really hate leaving him bound and gagged after I have run afoul of his captors and dispatched them all....but it is impossible to just cut his bonds and move on...you have to argue with him first and will fail unless you pass either the 'Persuade' or 'Intimidate' options, all of which further Molag Bal's quest along.

 

You can go back to the house and try and maybe help the Priest....but 'No' that is impossible...it's either leave him to his fate or kill him...no other choices given in that whole sordid mess....And so I inevitably leave him sitting at the shrine and try and forget the whole issue...but it will never leave my journal, because apparently what I want to do is complete the quest and my fairly decent Dovahkin has no personality, principles or depth, he just wants to abc everything.... :dry: ....No Thanks....clutter it is then.... :dry:

Edited September 2, 2012 by StayFrosty05

[StayFrosty05]

Yes, I can certainly understand actual quest changes being a big job....but if or when you decide to tackle the Grelod issue, I would be very interested myself and maybe hopefully even learned something about modding myself then and could possibly be of use to you in some way?...I am trying to learn modding, just am very Tech-No-Logic.... :(

 

I haven't been modding very long. Actually one of the reasons that I find this sort of mod appealing is that I really enjoy making them. I've found that they tend to be a great way to learn. A lot of the quests that have been mentioned would be fairly simple to correct, and would be great mods to experiment with and learn from. Pick a quest and look it up in the CK. Read a tutorial on quest construction, then look at how the vanilla quest is set up. Most of what I know has come from deconstructing vanilla quests in order to figure out how they work. Call me weird but I actually enjoy deconstructing mods about as much as I enjoy creating new ones. It's all one big puzzle and all you need to do is figure out how the pieces fit together. :)

 

I approach more complex ideas the same way. For example, if/when I decide to try to create more options for Grelod, what I plan to do is look at the initial Thieves Guild quest, when the guard arrests Brand-shei and takes him to jail. I would use that quest as a guide to try to structure a similar arrest scene for Grelod. Or possibly use an intimidate or persuade option to convince her to leave...again, I would first find a vanilla example to copy. If I do decide to work on this quest, I'll let you know. I wouldn't mind working together on it.

 

Thank you kyptopyr.... :happy: ....I like puzzles myself, though admittedly and electronic puzzle scares the beejeezers out of me.... :ohdear: ....but you have me very curious to gao and take a look now and see if I can makes heads or tails of it...Thank you.... :happy: ....and if I can work it out....I am apparently a very easy person to work with.... :happy:

[StayFrosty05]

A suggestion regarding the College of Winterhold: Make it so that faction's questline would not start until you actually talk to Mirabelle Ervine. That way, you would be able to progress through the main questline, and Dawnguard's questline, without having to stick a whole series of events in your journal. Unfortunately, without a lot of extensive modding you would still need to do the College of Winterhold questline in order to complete the Gauldur Amulet, collect all of the Dragon Priest Masks and whatnot, but I couldn't really think of any better solution.

 

Now that would be a brilliant start.... :happy: ....a major fix to the big quest lines....would make me a very happy camper.... :happy: ...As for the Masks, Amulet, etc....I got to admit, I am a terrible cheat there.... :( ...I found a lovely mod some time back that actually makes the Amulet very worth having and so, because I don't play Mages I console it.... :( ....Would love to do the quest for it, but that's not going to happen as the game stands...so console for the time being it is....Is actually a perfect Amulet now (with the mod) for someone who distrusts Mages and doesn't like Magic....aka. the Dovahkin I RP.

[gsmanners]

Once again, my own personal inclination is to delete quests and make NPCs act more like real people rather than quest-giving puppets. If you aren't mad about that idea, you might consider giving people the option to skip quests (in whole or even partly).