Please vote no on Proposition 8

[Dark0ne]

Incase you haven't noticed this is the debates forum, not the "everyone agrees with you" forum.

 

Being a paying customer has no standing in this regard. You must come to this forum expecting a debate, which has occured at a mature level I might add, or there's no point in posting here at all. If you believe that a post is particularly insulting then you report it and take the proper course of action as per the terms and conditions and etiquette of the site, not defend yourself with personal attacks and broad stereotypes of your own.

 

If you cannot do that then do not post in this forum at all.

[Aeryn333]

I was going to leave this post debate alone..Why because its far to personal to me..

Well here goes, I will either get stoned or ignored I am not sure whats worse anymore..

 

As a lesbian, I find the discussion of legality, of my rights, based on what a government or religion decides.. simply IMO unfair itself..

I am glad I am not in America, governed by laws, that says who gets to be free to be..But then I am in a religious country 90% Catholic, where its religion that decides..

Like neither have the right..la

 

Simply debate the constitution, debate the law, debate me, as if I was a animal..who must have their rights decided for them, no wait thats not right animals do have more rights...Forgive my wee sarcasm there, but put yourself in my shoes for a moment and pretend your reading others debates on your right to have rights, see how it feels..la

 

Like thats how it feels from this end at times..like plain and simple, what it boils down to is the right to be.

I am a very spiritual person, who walks their path unfailingly..and find it feels like a knife enters my heart, each time I read, that word abomination, ....

 

I realise by writing this post, I open myself to being pretty much ostracised here..possibly..I always leave room for hope..

Like I speak for all those who dare not..or fear to..

 

Why should gay couples have the right to, have children, someone asks.. why not, there are some lesbians that bear the same need as all womyn, not all but some and choose artificial insemination or adopt children who are unwanted, and are good parents, and no they do not raise children to be like them..like remember all us gay children were usually born in heterosexual households.. its is not DNA, its not inherited, and its not a choice..

Its who we are...I believe its a soul choice, before we even enter the body, to tell the truth..IMO..

 

I realise I may even be avoided by those I have befriended here, for there is that crazy fear, guilt by association, as if a gay womon cannot be friends with another womon without it meaning something..That is untrue..but I have found in my life is a real fear..sad but real..

 

Once I would argue, in the 60's I did allot of that..on many fronts.. I am to old for that now, now I reason..and it all boils down to this..something oh so simple..beyond all the technicalities voiced here..

 

Neither government nor religion has a right to dictate the rights of another humyn being..We are born as souls into this world with a destiny, and thats all that matters..

To fulfill the souls destiny,all paths lead to the same place, it matters not the path you take, but that you walk it with integrity..

The challenge on earth right now, is the lesson of tolerance..

That everyone, has a right to be..

 

I know the next arguments, oh so perverts have the right to be..child molesters ect..

No they all need to be strung up and pay for their crimes..as a victim of said crimes, I be the first to hang them from the tallest tree..

 

I am talking about anyone who is a decent humyn being, and cares about the humyn race, and does their part in society, invest energy into peace on earth, has a right to be..Do what thou wilt and harme none..is the only law that should be!!!!!

 

No laws, or state or religion has a right, to decide, what my rights should be..

So all can debate your constitution, or religion or whatever..into tiny complexities of legalities..

 

Like it all boils down to simplistically ...all people should have the right to be who they are...and have all the rights others take for granted...full stop....

 

With great trepidation I push post, and trust my friends will still be there after I do..and hope integrity and toleration, is greater than hate ,fear of the unknown, that compassion still exists inthe world..la

 

[Lisnpuppy]

Very brave of you Aeryn. I do not disagree with you. However you know these matters give rise to strong feelings. Thicken your skin now my friend and sister.

:)

[Aeryn333]

Very brave of you Aeryn. I do not disagree with you. However you know these matters give rise to strong feelings. Thicken your skin now my friend and sister.

:)

 

I live in Ireland, have pretty thick skin by now..I thank you for reassureing me, you still my sister and freind..publically..That too was brave Dani..

As for others, I hope since I said my piece civilly others will be so also..

But I realise its a hot topic, but I speak as all good Sagittarians do, not just for myself but those that dare not..

Words on this matter can No longer hurt me, when I was younger perhaps..

But older and wiser I am..I cannot afford to leave unsaid words, that matter to so very many..all over the world..

Thanks for your support. :smile:

[delphinus]

Dark0ne is right to say to keep it in a civil and construcive way, but i also understand that someone (i'm among them i think) can get mad at some posts, especially when there is no clear evidence of constructive ideas into them. I dont' know if there is a meter to judge which posts are constructive or not, but in this case, the sentence "Immoral; it's against nature" it's a bit poor of argumentations in my humble opinion, and also lacks originality, because i hear this worldwide.

 

There are things that can hurt personal feelings, beliefs, and thoughts i know. Same thing happened to me in the death penalty topic for example, i felt like i wanted to flame the entire topic instead of trying to civilly debate about the uselessness and blind cruelty of that "eye for eye" culture.

 

So to get back on topic, i'd like to civilly invite the "against gay" people to explain again CLEARLY how these people interfere in YOUR life. Do they compromise your "nature friendly" marriage? Or perhaps they steal your work?

 

My ideas are that i'm pro gay marriage because i like that everyone can have equal rights, and everyone should know that a society with ghettos and minorances doesn't work very well.

I admit that maybe i find a bit unpleasant seeing a couple of the same sex sharing love gestures, but i can simply react turning my eyes away or better just feeling happy fopr them.

 

I sincerely have some doubts on gay couples adoptions, not for a moral personal belief but because i'm aware that a kid needs both the female and male "side" (Freud?) Can anyone enlighten my ideas on that?

[Landsknecht]

I sincerely have some doubts on gay couples adoptions, not for a moral personal belief but because i'm aware that a kid needs both the female and male "side" (Freud?) Can anyone enlighten my ideas on that?

 

That is a good direction to take this debate, since the marriage debate can be very dicy since it can involve morals, religion, and "natural laws." The adoption debate is something that is much more complex.

 

I am complete pro-homosexual adoption since there are many children who need to be adopted by stable families. I am sure that children would rather be from a non-traditional household than be in the foster system (or anything like that). As for family structure, the child can receive the other gender's side through the extended family. IMO, the extended family should also be included in the traditional family and the concept of the nuclear family should be tossed with the other ignorant ideas of the 1950s household.

[Aeryn333]

Dark0ne is right to say to keep it in a civil and construcive way, but i also understand that someone (i'm among them i think) can get mad at some posts, especially when there is no clear evidence of constructive ideas into them. I dont' know if there is a meter to judge which posts are constructive or not, but in this case, the sentence "Immoral; it's against nature" it's a bit poor of argumentations in my humble opinion, and also lacks originality, because i hear this worldwide.

 

There are things that can hurt personal feelings, beliefs, and thoughts i know. Same thing happened to me in the death penalty topic for example, i felt like i wanted to flame the entire topic instead of trying to civilly debate about the uselessness and blind cruelty of that "eye for eye" culture.

 

So to get back on topic, i'd like to civilly invite the "against gay" people to explain again CLEARLY how these people interfere in YOUR life. Do they compromise your "nature friendly" marriage? Or perhaps they steal your work?

 

My ideas are that i'm pro gay marriage because i like that everyone can have equal rights, and everyone should know that a society with ghettos and minorances doesn't work very well.

I admit that maybe i find a bit unpleasant seeing a couple of the same sex sharing love gestures, but i can simply react turning my eyes away or better just feeling happy fopr them.

 

I sincerely have some doubts on gay couples adoptions, not for a moral personal belief but because i'm aware that a kid needs both the female and male "side" (Freud?) Can anyone enlighten my ideas on that?

 

Well stated changed my wording of immoral..just being judged by state or religion feels that way, inherently wrong thats all..since most people are not so judged..what I meant to say..I have dyslexia and sometimes can't find the word I am looking for..That was not exactly what I meant..your right it is way overused..but the word I wanted just wasn't coming to me, at the moment chalk it down to nerves..and posting what I did..

In one sentance..Single moms..their children grow up fine..with one parent, on that precept what's the difference..no put down on single moms..no campaigns against them..so why gay moms..la

 

edited..I also agree with landsknecht

Extended families should be involved and the child can receive the other gender's side through the extended family.. I was lucky in the sense my Grans,a wise auld womon and me Da accepted me..

My brother and Ma did not, rejected me, remarried and her and my brother left to the states..long ago..to this day do not speak to me, civilly that is..

Gay people have suffered far to long, to have state, church or sociatal laws, determine if they are fit parents, when I have known and experienced many unfit straight parents incl my own mother..

Believe me its far better to grow up in homes with those who love you, then foster homes where many kids are used and abused..la

[dezdimona]

Anyone who knows me on these forums,or who has read my "Trinity" story and it's prelude, knows my feelings on the matter of equality for sexual choice. I'll repeat what I said in that topic and story preface. No one is any better than anyone else. Oh you may think you are, but you are of the same flesh and blood as the rest of the "human race". I am a Bi-sexual, and by what right does any one tell me thats it's wrong for me to sleep with or have sex with another woman?

 

Barring your own personal beliefs and any religious beliefs that anyone has, none! Thats right none!.

You don't own me,nor do you pay my bills.I was raised to be myself,to be honest about my feelings and to always trust that "God don't make no junk". Thats right, I used the G word. God and my belief in a power greater than me has nothing to do with religion. I was raised a Catholic,and I do believe in a

Loving and Forgiving power. Religion is man made, nothing more. Please don't get me wrong,if you like it good for you. I am also very comfortably in my sexuality, and some people are not comfortable with that either.

 

Here's some news for you. It's your problem,not mine,your hang-ups and phobia's against two people that love and care for each other shows a character defect...yes,thats what I said,trust me I know what mine are( yes we all have them too). ,and I work to change them or at least better them. Nowhere is it carved in stone that a man and a woman can raise a child better than two same sex partners.

 

I have loved and more than likely shall again,fall in love with another woman,and yes, I fall for men too. I don't judge people,thats not up to me. I look at the inside and how they treat others. There's plenty of bad and evil men and women in the world,and to deny two people their right to love each other and to commit to each other if they so wish, harms no one. I know it doesn't hurt me one little bit,so why should it hurt someone else. I could care less who you have sex with,what color car you drive,where you live or what foods you like. So why do you care about two people who hurt no one loving and caring for,and spending their lives together.

 

I'm not here to judge so please,don't quote and pick apart what I just said, thats a character flaw also. Live in peace,let others live their lives as they choose and quess what,we'll all get along much better. I'll choose personal freedom and my right to spend it with whom ever I please over your hate,bigotry and homophobia. (Google phobia,check out what one is).

my input,and I'll not return to this topic. when do we as a race of people,let ourselves be ourselves and not what others think should be to their likes and dislikes. I'm me and I love who I am,what about you?

[Michlo]

Thank you, all.

 

I believe it is just too hard for people like Dark0ne to understand since they've not had to live in a world they're not a full member of.

 

Cheers.

[Lisnpuppy]

Thank you, all.

 

I believe it is just too hard for people like Dark0ne to understand since they've not had to live in a world they're not a full member of.

 

Cheers.

 

Michlo--

 

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with that one mate.

I dont know you, or Robin or anyone on this site other than what they may share...which is a far from complete picture. I agree with some of your ideals...I dont agree with some of the ways you have chosen to share them. How do you know how Robin lives? Are you flatmates? I could be a complete freak...a hump on my back..or I could be tall, blonde, beautiful and perfect...who knows.

 

I DO know that the world is a mirror my friend...and often the thing you find most disagreeable about others is the same thing you find disagreeable in yourself.

 

Lets keep this more of a generalized intellectual debate can we?