Getting Frustrated By Players Crying Foul

[IsharaMeradin]

NOTE: if this is in the wrong forum section, please move it. if there is something like this out there, please make it more visible. it should be seen without having to search.

 

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I go thru numerous mods looking for things that interest me or I just read up on the comments for those mods that I'm already using. I do try to help out when I can and I've learned a lot in the process.

 

What annoys me is seeing a lot of problems regarding certain mods or just mods in general which I may not have had, the mod author may not have had, and many others haven't had. Yet the mod begins to get a bad name because it gets passed around that said mod breaks games or whatever.

 

I think a proper reporting form for users to fill out would be nice to have. That way when they report an issue they are having, it may be easier to see at a glance that the problem could be stemmed from other things.

 

Just because uninstalling one mod 'solves' the problem, doesn't mean that mod caused the problem. Since game data as well as mod data gets stored in the save game, it becomes totally possible that one mod will become reliant on another. Not reliant in that they must be in all games of every player or they won't work. But reliant in that the data stored in the save file is reliant on both being there.

 

Its cases like these when crashes and major problems occur. Mod C may have been removed and the game didn't seem to have any problems till days later in a certain location and boom the game crashes. Taking out Mod B seems to solve that problem and thus Mod B gets the bad wrap. When in fact it may have actually been left over stuff in the save file from Mod C that was supposed to be processed before Mod B could do it's part in that location. So while taking Mod B out may solve the symptom, the real problem was originally removing Mod C and causing save game clutter.

 

I recommend therefore that players report their problems to mod authors in a format that provides the following information.

 

Detailed report of the problem: -- list everything that happened, where in game, what you were doing in game, what object/npcs/creatures were around when the problem happened

What has been done to try to resolve the problem: -- list all attempts to find a way around the issue

What was the load order of active mods at the time of the problem: -- list all mods that were active when the issue first was noticed

Were any mods disabled/deleted/removed prior to the problem: -- list all mods that have been removed from the game and were at some point a part of your characters save games -- includes all mods even those with "clean save" instructions

Does reinstalling one or more removed mods also solve the problem: -- if reapplying a removed mod also solves the situation, be sure to state that.

Does the problem persist if you start a new game and try to repeat the problem: -- report the result of testing a new character and trying to repeat the problem

 

With information like this it will help mod authors to find and replicate problems. Just saying "my game crashes with this mod" isn't enough. Blaming a specific mod for causing problems without doing deep analysis on the situation is not helpful in solving the problem, nor is it being respectful of a mod author's hard work.

 

I know on most forums something like this would be stickied and mod authors might link back to it for convenience of their users. But here on the Nexus with the ability to just comment from the mod page, seeing a stickied post isn't going to happen. Authors would have to link to it or the Nexus add in a mod problem report button or something.

 

I'm just thinking out loud...

 

Does anyone else think that something like this is a good idea? Doesn't have to be exactly like this, but something is better than nothing...

[Lord Garon]

Great idea, but having written some programs in the past, a little more info is needed. IMHO, at least.

 

Otherwise identical platforms may exhibit completely different performance issues depending upon things like driver versions, anti-virus programs, patch levels, even user preference settings and system tweaks. Perhaps the mod authors could get together with NEXUS and come up with a minimal system information gathering program or script which could collect the most commonly desired user info for mod troubleshooting. A mini "HiJackThis" for Skyrim mod troubleshooting.

 

There is a mod troubleshooting forum here, perhaps a better place for a topic like this.

[IsharaMeradin]

Yes I saw the troubleshooting forum, but there are no guidelines, nothing stickied, nothing that would in any way give direction on how to provide feedback in a meaningful manner.

 

And yes the things you mentioned all play a factor too and could be listed at the start or at the very least asked for by those who are trying to resolve the problem.

 

Admittedly many mod authors make a mod, it works on their game. They share it, but never visit their mod again. Or if they do they don't like all the negative comments they see and they give up on it. I end up checking the upload dates on files to see when the mod was last active, I even check to see when the mod author was last active. If there are a lot of problem complaints and the mod hasn't been updated in a while, good chance that something changed and it is no longer compatible with the current patch level of Skyrim.

 

That might be another thing that Nexus should implement. Having authors note what patch level the mod can run on or since Nexus doesn't support pirates have the game's current patch level auto-applied if nothing specific is entered by the mod author.

[BetterTejbz]

Is it true that Oblivion mods worked more consistently across different computers than Skyrim mods do? I read that in a mod description.

[IsharaMeradin]

Is it true that Oblivion mods worked more consistently across different computers than Skyrim mods do? I read that in a mod description.

I wouldn't know. Never played Oblivion.

[blitzen]

I think the problem is much too complicated to be addressed by simply applying discipline to problem reporting. In essence, everyone playing Skyrim and using mods needs to achieve a significant level of understanding and expertise with respect to how mods work, how they can interfere with each other, what comprises a save game, what load order is, how the same load order can produce different results because install order was different, etc. To report a problem one individual is having with a mod and expect the mod author to do something about it is unrealistic, particularly if a lot of people are using it successfully already. Mod authors don't release mods that don't work for them, and they certainly don't have time to debug each individual's mod setup. I think the best we can do is take the approach bben is using, and that is to provide a place to educate people so that they can debug their own mod problems. If you aren't willing to do that, then you should not be playing this game with mods, nor should you be posting in a forum begging for others to solve your problems. There is so much information just in the topics on this forum, that you can learn quite a bit simply by reading through it. Yes, it takes time, but if people don't have the time to do that, why should they think that mod authors or other players have the time to solve their problems for them?

 

As far as all the complaining in the mod comments, that's just human nature. We all need to learn to ignore it. It's going to happen. Everyone putting a mod out there should realize by now that they may be trolled, criticized, insulted, etc at some point. It goes without saying. They shouldn't take it personally. If I were a mod author, I would just say in the description: "Here is my mod. Use it or not, I don't care. If it doesn't work for you, or you don't like it, don't use it. I'm not interested in hearing that you don't like it. I don't expect everyone to like it. I made it this way because that's how I want it. If you want it to be different, make your own mod."

[IsharaMeradin]

blitzen, everything you've said is true and I agree with it. I do think a little discipline in problem reporting will go a long way.

 

While I can ignore the individual "your mod broke my game" type of comments it is the larger posts which go into extreme detail about a specific problem and target a specific mod that foster the idea that said mod is a 'bad mod'. Its those cases where the player has put forth some effort to find the root of the problem, which cause disparity and disgruntlement because they sound so knowledgeable that others come along and believe without doing their own research. These players are already putting forth an effort to resolve the problem, it is they who would benefit most from using a guide or form to concisely get their situation across in a manner that is helpful rather than destructive. I understand there is no stopping what people are going to assume or infer from their reading of anything.

 

I know there have been times I've not followed my own advice/suggestions and I usually end up going back and having to eat my words because I've found that the mod in question wasn't the problem but rather something else altogether. In learning from my own experiences and expressing my frustration with seeing certain mods get blamed as being trouble mods when plenty of people have had no problems, I thought that maybe something could be done. whether that be a series of troubleshooting guides, with a suggested format of explaining the problem and asking for help if they can't solve it on their own or something else entirely. I just feel that there needs to be something. bben's guide is helpful but its more along the workings of the computer vs skyrim.

 

Google has been an invaluable source for my own troubleshooting, but 9 times out of 10, I find more people with similar problems than those with any knowledge on how to resolve, work around, or otherwise diagnose any problems. Maybe the game is too new for this and not all these things have been hammered out yet. I don't know. I just needed to get my thoughts out... Maybe something can come of it, maybe not.

[gsmanners]

Crashes and other "major" issues are engine problems. Period. End of discussion.

 

This is why I can never mod a Bethesda game again. They just cannot get their engine working right. They refuse to even acknowledge that there is anything wrong in spite of the hundreds of reports of people running the game completely vanilla on three different platforms. And each "patch" only makes the engine less stable (unlike every other game I've ever played).

 

I'm not saying giving up is the way to go, but it is an option.

[Rastafariel]

Thats a bummer gsmanners because I dont see many other games like the ones that Bethesda makes that are worth modding. FO & TES are leaders in their fields (setting aside any arguable engine problems) I used to think BioWare was worth modding but their games are so rail-roady it makes me cringe. Good for a playthrough but nothing like the typical Bethesda Sandbox (with the possible exception of NWN2 - if you can deal with that interface)

 

Anyway - Cheers.

 

Regarding the OP.... Dont take this the wrong way but I dont see a need for change. We have a posting area for commenst on the mod that all can read. Most all of us are adults. If we see one bad complaint we will probably try the mod anyway if we like/want it. If we see many, we likely wont.

[gsmanners]

Argh. I know. TES has that "invisible touch" that I just adore. And just like the old song, I know it will mess up my life, but I want it just the same. :wallbash: