Having the Falmer be Blind is Just Stupid

[IsharaMeradin]

If game mechanics define the lore then what higher power is dropping all these mammoths and dragon skeletons from the sky? That's what I want to know.

Sheogorath. who else could it be? :P

[Tidus44]

Since you have chosen not to read the post I was replying to and have simply taken my comments out of context to serve your need to be antagonistic and inflammatory it is likely entirely useless for me to attmpt to reply.

 

It is strongly suggested in future you actually read things instead of becoming hostile and abusive about things you do not fully understand.

No I did read what you typed, and what you were replaying to, and what the post you were replaying to was replaying to, and I believe you are wrong, and kinda being a dick.

 

There has been literally zero proof provided that the Flamer can see, in any way, and yet you, by your word words, say

With incontrovertible proof that the Falmer have the ability to see, it is a bit astonishing that there is still an unwavering conviction that the Falmer are blind because lore says so and therefore any suggestion they have any level of ability to see must be unfounded.

You use a quip from the book “The Falmer: A Study”, to try to back up your claim, yet anyone who knows anything about Elder scrolls lore knows that In-game books are some of, if not the single most, untrustworthy sources of information in the game.

 

Or should I remind everyone of how wrong books such as The Amulet of Kings are? And lets not forget my favorite lie told by books in Elder scrolls, that Tiber Septim was a nord from Atmora.

 

The Falmer are blind, in their entirety, and lack any ability to see, be it physical or magical, and they will remain that way until a developer says otherwise.

 

So again, I point out that within the game the Falmer are fully capable of using bows and arrows with a degree of accuracy and finesse and are also capable of locating and identifying enemies from a distance.

If you have some proof that this is not fact from the game, please identify it.

 

To rely upon whatever may be written in lore or what some developer says or does not say, and use this to deny that the Falmer are able to perform these feats within the game is irrational and delusional.

Again, if you have some proof that the Falmer are incapable of performing these feats within the game, please identify it.

 

To state that the Falmer's ability to perform these feats in the game is not proof of their ability to perform them is equally irrational and nonsensical.

If empirical evidence is not adequate proof of the Falmer’s capabilities, then I submit that you are not acceptable to rational discussion and are simply being a troll.

 

Obviously, the Falmer have some level or ability to see, whatever that ability may consist of, and are not defenceless and incapable beings. Again, if you have any proof that the Falmer are defenceless and incapable, please identify it.

 

Lastly, I fail to understand exactly why you choose to be antagonistic and hostile and utilize insults in your replies. If you are unable to maintain a calm demeanor may I recommend perhaps you should avoid becoming involved in discussions.

[sajuukkhar9000]

So again, I point out that within the game the Falmer are fully capable of using bows and arrows with a degree of accuracy and finesse and are also capable of locating and identifying enemies from a distance.

If you have some proof that this is not fact from the game, please identify it.

And I point out again that the games have never, ever, properly reflected the lore of the series.

 

By your logic I could claim that because flame spells don't burn down houses in the game, it's proof that they must not in lore, yet we all know they can burn down houses in lore. Your entire argument falls apart because you are trying to use how a game works as proof of how something works in the Elder Scrolls universe itself.

 

It is absured to try to take what happens in game, that is limited by the engine, coding, the power of the systems that play it, the simple fact that the real world doesn't have magic, and countless other things as being a realistic, or even remotely accurate, representation of how things withing the ES universe actually work.

 

Skyrim is a game, limited in what it can do, and show, by the fact it is a game. However the Elder Scrolls universe, which is a work of fiction that transcends the game into various mediums, is not limited in such ways. To try to take a limited representation of a full thing as a 100% accurate is folly.

 

Your "empirical evidence" only provides proof to how the game works, it is not however proof of how the universe the game is based off of works.

Edited September 18, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Tidus44]

So again, I point out that within the game the Falmer are fully capable of using bows and arrows with a degree of accuracy and finesse and are also capable of locating and identifying enemies from a distance.

If you have some proof that this is not fact from the game, please identify it.

And I point out again that the games have never, ever, properly reflected the lore of the series.

 

By your logic I could claim that because flame spells don't burn down houses in the game, it's proof that they must not in lore, yet we all know they can burn down houses in lore. Your entire argument falls apart because you are trying to use how a game works as proof of how something works in the Elder Scrolls universe itself.

 

It is absured to try to take what happens in game, that is limited by the engine, coding, the power of the systems that play it, the simple fact that the real world doesn't have magic, and countless other things as being a realistic, or even remotely accurate, representation of how things withing the ES universe actually work.

 

Skyrim is a game, limited in what it can do, and show, by the fact it is a game. However the Elder Scrolls universe, which is a work of fiction that transcends the game into various mediums, is not limited in such ways. To try to take a limited representation of a full thing as a 100% accurate is folly.

 

Your "empirical evidence" only provides proof to how the game works, it is not however proof of how the universe the game is based off of works.

 

 

Since you seem to be incapable of staying focused on the subject, that being that the Falmer are capable of performing activities that require some ability to see (whatever that ability consists of) and are insistent on jumping from fantasy to reality and then back, it is rather difficult to discuss both sides of the issue at the same time.

 

You have stated previously that the game is a fantasy world and not the real world, and cannot be explained in real world concepts. I quote from your post #10;

Fun fact, the Elder Scrolls is not the real world, trying to demand a real world explanation for feats performed in a FANTASY game series is asinine drivel that this is magnificent in its absolute denial of fact and unsubstantiated blather bordering on the delusional.

And from post #23;

It is absured to try to take what happens in game, that is limited by the engine, coding, the power of the systems that play it, the simple fact that the real world doesn't have magic, and countless other things as being a realistic, or even remotely accurate, representation of how things withing the ES universe actually work.

 

Yet you continue to insist that what occurs in the game must be measured against real world physics and facts, and I quote from your post #23.

by your logic I could claim that because flame spells don't burn down houses in villages in the game is proof that they must not in lore, yet we all know they can burn down houses.

Either your contention is the world is fantasy or it isn't, but it cannot be both at the same time.

 

And really, as a fantasy world, the physics of Skyrim is that magical fireballs do not burn inanimate objects and are only capable of causing injury to animate objects. If you have some proof that this is not fact within the fantasy world of the game, please identify it.

If empirical evidence is insufficient for proof that magical fireballs do not damage inanimate objects, then you are not acceptable to rational discussion and are simply trolling.

One does not need to explain or prove the physics (which would be impossible anyway), and one must accept that by observation of such things occurring within the fantasy world this is proof that these things in fact do occur within the fantasy world. To deny they do not is absurd.

 

Lore is wrong. I have said, you have said.

From post #10 I clearly stated;

What evidence is required to prove that the Falmer can see and the lore is either wrong or has not kept up with possible changes the Falmer may have undergone?

From post #23 you have stated;

And I point out again that the games have never, ever properly relfected the lore of the series.

Simply, lore cannot be relied upon and is entirely inconsistent with what actually occurs in the game, so I fail to see why you insist on using lore as a point on anything when we both state clearly and accept that the lore is wrong and cannot be relied upon as proof of anything.

 

Your "empirical evidence" only provides proof to how the game works, it is not however proof of how the universe the game is based off of work.

There is no universe in a fantasy world. And again, you insist on using lore as a point when we have both stated that lore is meaningless.

 

To assume that there is anything beyond the game world or what was placed in the game by the developers is beyond fantasy, it is delusional. The game is what it is and that is the physics, the chemistry, the “reality” if you will, of the game world. No rules or laws exist other than those that exist in the game. To suggest that some imaginary universe exists that governs the way the game works is ridiculous.

 

And really, exactly what universe is it that you think the game is based off of? There is absolutely no reality within the game of Skyrim and short of some extremely loose resemblances to the real world nothing in the game has any correlation with reality.

 

Thus, I come to my final point. One may only believe what they see in the game as it is the only fact available. Lore, imaginary universes, what developers say or do not say or any dream, fantasy or delusion one may make up does not change the fact that the Falmer do shoot arrows from bows, are in fact capable of locating and identifying enemies from a distance and are not defenceless or incapable.

Thus, any and all argument that the Falmer are not able to do these things for any reason imaginary or otherwise is completely wrong, has no basis in fact and is erroneous to the point of being ludicrous.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Let me clear up a few things you seem to misunderstood.

-The game, and the lore, is impossible to subject to real-world physics because it is a fantasy world of magic were the sheer act of belief itself alters the universe

 

-My comment on fireballs being able to burn down houses has nothing to do with anything real-world, it has to do with the game not staying true to lore. If you pay attention to what Guards say they even tell you that "Destruction magic's fine, just don't go burning down any buildings." Which shows that, within lore, destruction magic can in fact destroy building, the fact that you cannot do it in the game, is simply because it is a game, and thus limited, and trying to say that because you cant do it in the game must mean you can't do it within the context of the Universe, is wrong.

 

-I suggest you re-read my comment about lore again. I never said lore Is wrong, I said the game is wrong because it cannot properly reflect lore. Lore itself can never be wrong, but the game doesn't reflect lore, because games are limited.

 

To assume that there is anything beyond the game world or what was placed in the game by the developers is beyond fantasy, it is delusional.

So what you are saying is, that because there are no restrooms in Whiterun in the game, there are really no restrooms in Whiterun in the Elder scrolls universe? I'm sorry but what your saying makes no sense, and does not hold up to logic.

 

There are plenty of things that aren't shown in the games that we know exist/happen

-People using the Restroom

-People trading with merchants and the Kahjiit caravans

-The Jarls actually doing courtly duties

-People aging

-People getting arrested over stuff

-Large Scale battles between the Stormcloaks and Empire

-People throwing parites

 

Unless you really want to try to push the notion that people in the Elder Scrolls universe don't have to use the restroom ever, your argument doesn't hold up. Just because it is not in the game does not mean it doesn't exist, to try to claim otherwise is frankly silly because of inherently limited nature of games. What you are basically saying is "because I can't see China, it must not exist." It's nonsensical.

 

Video games are inherently limited by their very nature, to assume that what we see in the game is 100% accurate representation of the lives, and actions, of people, and the world around them is to ignore the very fact that games are limited, and thus it is impossible for game makers to program every single thing that naturally would occur.

 

Furthermore, comments, stories, interviews, and other things, made by the games developers have included stories of thing that are impossible to do in game, again because games are limited, and yet treat they treat as canon. Not even the game devs themselves treat the game as 100% accurate, because everyone but you seems to get that the game is not 100% accurate in its representation.

 

You are simply trolling if you really try to pass off the belief that the game is 100% accurate in its presentation of the universe of the Elder Scrolls.

Edited September 18, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[IsharaMeradin]

For the topic at hand, both of you are getting a little bit off....

 

For starters, blind does not have to mean total blindness. Blindness can include limited vision too. Simply because nothing has been said by lore or the concept writers for the game about the specific depth of blindness the Falmer have undergone doesn't mean that they are all purely, utterly and totally blind. Each one encountered should be considered a unique individual. Perhaps those that are archers are those who can see something. Or perhaps they know of spells & devices that can give them sight. There are already several powers in the game which provide enhanced vision. Why must it be assumed because nothing is said that the Falmer don't have access to such a power as well?

 

To simply close your mind off to the possibilities because the game does not provide a specific reason for their behavior is to put it bluntly wrong.

 

One, it's a game which like a book is meant to stretch your imagination.

Two, it's a game which means that unlike a book it is limited by the capabilities of the systems it is built for, whether that be pen & paper, computer, board or anything else.

Three, it's a game for crying out loud!!!

 

[sarcasm]

Oh and just to prove you both wrong....

There are plenty of nooks with buckets, stools & reading materials obviously put in discreet places to give some privacy when relieving oneself. However, if you strip the undies from a stock character, they have no parts with which to relieve themselves with. One must obviously conclude that they puke everything back up...

[/sarcasm]

I'm quite certain that lore & the game are meant to indicate otherwise, but that fit in nicely with the 'blind' assumptions going on.... pun intended

[Tidus44]

Let me clear up a few things you seem to misunderstood.

-The game, and the lore, is impossible to subject to real-world physics because it is a fantasy world of magic were the sheer act of belief itself alters the universe

 

-My comment on fireballs being able to burn down houses has nothing to do with anything real-world, it has to do with the game not staying true to lore. If you pay attention to what Guards say they even tell you that "Destruction magic's fine, just don't go burning down any buildings." Which shows that, within lore, destruction magic can in fact destroy building, the fact that you cannot do it in the game, is simply because it is a game, and thus limited, and trying to say that because you cant do it in the game must mean you can't do it within the context of the Universe, is wrong.

 

-I suggest you re-read my comment about lore again. I never said lore Is wrong, I said the game is wrong because it cannot properly reflect lore. Lore itself can never be wrong, but the game doesn't reflect lore, because games are limited.

 

To assume that there is anything beyond the game world or what was placed in the game by the developers is beyond fantasy, it is delusional.

So what you are saying is, that because there are no restrooms in Whiterun in the game, there are really no restrooms in Whiterun in the Elder scrolls universe? I'm sorry but what your saying makes no sense, and does not hold up to logic.

 

There are plenty of things that aren't shown in the games that we know exist/happen

-People using the Restroom

-People trading with merchants and the Kahjiit caravans

-The Jarls actually doing courtly duties

-People aging

-People getting arrested over stuff

-Large Scale battles between the Stormcloaks and Empire

-People throwing parites

 

Unless you really want to try to push the notion that people in the Elder Scrolls universe don't have to use the restroom ever, your argument doesn't hold up. Just because it is not in the game does not mean it doesn't exist, to try to claim otherwise is frankly silly because of inherently limited nature of games. What you are basically saying is "because I can't see China, it must not exist." It's nonsensical.

 

Video games are inherently limited by their very nature, to assume that what we see in the game is 100% accurate representation of the lives, and actions, of people, and the world around them is to ignore the very fact that games are limited, and thus it is impossible for game makers to program every single thing that naturally would occur.

 

Furthermore, comments, stories, interviews, and other things, made by the games developers have included stories of thing that are impossible to do in game, again because games are limited, and yet treat they treat as canon. Not even the game devs themselves treat the game as 100% accurate, because everyone but you seems to get that the game is not 100% accurate in its representation.

 

You are simply trolling if you really try to pass off the belief that the game is 100% accurate in its presentation of the universe of the Elder Scrolls.

 

 

I find it a waste of time and energy discussing something with someone who refuses to respond, ignores the discussion at hand and continually brings up unrelated and meaningless issues. It is also rude and inconsiderate to fail to discuss something with a reasonable level of honesty or to make wild and unfounded accusations based upon nothing more than choosing to be obstinate and insulting.

 

Since you seem to be incapable of an open and honest discussion without becoming somewhat hysterical and petulant, I thank you for your time, but I will choose to ignore you in future to avoid any undesirable consequences.

[cycloney911]

The person who heated this argument is a Falmer.

[Deleted3507349User]

Bats hunt their prey their prey by using echo-location. Ever watch the videos of them in action? Seems to me they behave much the same way they would if they hunted by sight.

 

Also, it's a game. If it makes you feel better you could think of it as an alien world with a completely foreign set of physics laws.

 

If the vanilla behavior of falmer is bothering you that much, make a mod that redefines their AI. It would no doubt become quite popular. Much more productive than arguing over something silly like the mechanics of a fictional game set in a fictional world populated by fictional creatures.

[cycloney911]

^Dunmer