National Service

[WarRatsG]

Personally, I think national service should be brought back in the UK.

That makes you a controll freak who wanna decide over other peoples lives and want them to do something under the threat of violence and jailtime by spoken so easyly about cheap labour.

I could never ever tolerate such mindset in my personal social environment. And what makes it even worse is, that you know exactly about desertion and suicide among those forced people.

 

Read my second comment mate. I'm causing an argument to help me write about the issue. It's called being the "devil's advocate." People will quite easily argue with a lot of conviction, but it's a lot harder to fiercely agree ;)

I should probably change that part of the first post, now that the debate is underway and it's not needed. I get the feeling I'm being condemned :biggrin:

 

 

National service was abolished 15 years ago in France, I never had to join the army. On a personal level, I will admit it makes me glad. Previous posters have stated better than I could do some of the positive aspects of the abolition of military conscription.

 

Abolition of military conscription is always a good thing, just because of the ethical connotations behind a government being able to tell you who to point a gun at. National Service does not always place people into the military though, although that used to be the main focus. There could be a system that allows a multitude of different placements - even in the army there are several departments.

 

I do think that there are some dangers in getting rid of it, though. I don't know much about the situation in English speaking countries, but in France it was one of the few ways of building a sense of national community. My dad met plenty of persons he would never have without the army, persons from all over France and from different social classes. Our society is very hierarchical, so the army really helped "glue" everything together, if that makes sense.

 

Additionally, conscription keeps the army from being cut off from civil society, which (in my opinion) decreases the risks of a military coup. A professional army attracts some seriously weird individuals (I won't go as far as to say deranged, but a few I knew would definitely fit that description).

 

In the US, servicemen are appreciated by the people. If they wear the uniform into a bar they will get free drinks from random people, and from the bartender if he knows them. In the UK, wearing uniform will get you labelled either "weird" or "murderer", at least in my experience. The MoD could use a change of image. Having family in the army, and having the army help youths become young adults, would earn the army a lot of respect.

 

 

Heck no, every single militery in the world screws it's people, I mean look at Vietnam - those soldiers got chemicled by there own govt, and there own govt refuses to give them a decent payout for that agent orange that has affected generation after generation of people and still devestates Vietnam, Nope. I say screw the govt run milterys, if you wanna go fight and lose a limb or your life or your quality of life then go ahead but don't force people to go fight and get screwed over and come back disabled for life and have bad mental problems because they are so used to living on the edge that they can't deal with things being peaceful afterwards.

 

If the govts looked after their troops for life then yes maybe, but truth is that they don't. Once a soldier is injured to a point where they are no further use to govts to fight they screw them and toss them away like human trash and to me thats just disgusting and wrong and horrrible to do that to someone. Nobody deserves that.

 

Do you know many soldiers? I know many people living happily off a very generous army pension in their 40s, some with a non-military job that they gained from the qualifications in the army. As for the injured... I know of a guy (friend's uncle's friend) who did get an amputation below the knee in his left leg. He was in no way tossed away "like human trash".

Edited October 7, 2012 by WarRatsG

[dunmermaiden]

Personally, I think national service should be brought back in the UK.

That makes you a controll freak who wanna decide over other peoples lives and want them to do something under the threat of violence and jailtime by spoken so easyly about cheap labour.

I could never ever tolerate such mindset in my personal social environment. And what makes it even worse is, that you know exactly about desertion and suicide among those forced people.

 

Read my second comment mate. I'm causing an argument to help me write about the issue. It's called being the "devil's advocate." People will quite easily argue with a lot of conviction, but it's a lot harder to fiercely agree ;)

I should probably change that part of the first post, now that the debate is underway and it's not needed. I get the feeling I'm being condemned :biggrin:

 

 

National service was abolished 15 years ago in France, I never had to join the army. On a personal level, I will admit it makes me glad. Previous posters have stated better than I could do some of the positive aspects of the abolition of military conscription.

 

Abolition of military conscription is always a good thing, just because of the ethical connotations behind a government being able to tell you who to point a gun at. National Service does not always place people into the military though, although that used to be the main focus. There could be a system that allows a multitude of different placements - even in the army there are several departments.

 

I do think that there are some dangers in getting rid of it, though. I don't know much about the situation in English speaking countries, but in France it was one of the few ways of building a sense of national community. My dad met plenty of persons he would never have without the army, persons from all over France and from different social classes. Our society is very hierarchical, so the army really helped "glue" everything together, if that makes sense.

 

Additionally, conscription keeps the army from being cut off from civil society, which (in my opinion) decreases the risks of a military coup. A professional army attracts some seriously weird individuals (I won't go as far as to say deranged, but a few I knew would definitely fit that description).

 

In the US, servicemen are appreciated by the people. If they wear the uniform into a bar they will get free drinks from random people, and from the bartender if he knows them. In the UK, wearing uniform will get you labelled either "weird" or "murderer", at least in my experience. The MoD could use a change of image. Having family in the army, and having the army help youths become young adults, would earn the army a lot of respect.

 

 

Heck no, every single militery in the world screws it's people, I mean look at Vietnam - those soldiers got chemicled by there own govt, and there own govt refuses to give them a decent payout for that agent orange that has affected generation after generation of people and still devestates Vietnam, Nope. I say screw the govt run milterys, if you wanna go fight and lose a limb or your life or your quality of life then go ahead but don't force people to go fight and get screwed over and come back disabled for life and have bad mental problems because they are so used to living on the edge that they can't deal with things being peaceful afterwards.

 

If the govts looked after their troops for life then yes maybe, but truth is that they don't. Once a soldier is injured to a point where they are no further use to govts to fight they screw them and toss them away like human trash and to me thats just disgusting and wrong and horrrible to do that to someone. Nobody deserves that.

 

Do you know many soldiers? I know many people living happily off a very generous army pension in their 40s, some with a non-military job that they gained from the qualifications in the army. As for the injured... I know of a guy (friend's uncle's friend) who did get an amputation below the knee in his left leg. He was in no way tossed away "like human trash".

 

I do yes, I met a guy who came back from a war - he couldn't cope with what he saw there had seen things and done things noone should have to do. He told me once his friend got shot and he scooped up his brains and put them back in his friends head and yelled for a medic. He saw heavy action and well he turned to alcohol once home because he is still psychologily disturbed and cannot cope with life without heavy gunfire and the stuff he got used to.

 

He couldn't be a proper dad to his little daughter or a good husband to his wife. Govt won't help him, all he gets is a govt benefit that he can barely survive on and the govt took his daughter off him. Joining the armed services and going off to war totally messed up his whole life.

 

My brother in law served in the army, he didn't go off to war somewhere and got out before Bush forced NZ to go off to war with him by way of threats to our prime minister at the time. He is doing well and working and brings in a good wage. The miltery is only a good option to get free training if you happen to do it when there's no war going on.

 

As for Agent Orange, thats still causing severe problems in vietnam children - they are born with various things wrong with them, mental disabilitys. And the USA still refuses to admit they did wrong in what they did there.

[WarRatsG]

I do yes, I met a guy who came back from a war - he couldn't cope with what he saw there had seen things and done things noone should have to do. He told me once his friend got shot and he scooped up his brains and put them back in his friends head and yelled for a medic. He saw heavy action and well he turned to alcohol once home because he is still psychologily disturbed and cannot cope with life without heavy gunfire and the stuff he got used to.

 

He couldn't be a proper dad to his little daughter or a good husband to his wife. Govt won't help him, all he gets is a govt benefit that he can barely survive on and the govt took his daughter off him. Joining the armed services and going off to war totally messed up his whole life.

 

My brother in law served in the army, he didn't go off to war somewhere and got out before Bush forced NZ to go off to war with him by way of threats to our prime minister at the time. He is doing well and working and brings in a good wage. The miltery is only a good option to get free training if you happen to do it when there's no war going on.

 

I'm gonna drop all this devil's advocate bulls*** for a moment. There's a time to argue and now is not one of them.

 

First off, I'm sorry about what happened to your friend, or if I offended. I sympathise. The truth is war should never happen, and since national service is an extension of war it should never happen either. Armies in general are an extension of war and world peace cannot truly happen so long as a single army or militia exists, conscripted or otherwise. Plus nobody - including governments, Presidents, prime ministers, kings and commanders - should have the right to make you point a gun at someone and tell you to pull the trigger, especially when you don't know or agree with the reason why.

[dunmermaiden]

I do yes, I met a guy who came back from a war - he couldn't cope with what he saw there had seen things and done things noone should have to do. He told me once his friend got shot and he scooped up his brains and put them back in his friends head and yelled for a medic. He saw heavy action and well he turned to alcohol once home because he is still psychologily disturbed and cannot cope with life without heavy gunfire and the stuff he got used to.

 

He couldn't be a proper dad to his little daughter or a good husband to his wife. Govt won't help him, all he gets is a govt benefit that he can barely survive on and the govt took his daughter off him. Joining the armed services and going off to war totally messed up his whole life.

 

My brother in law served in the army, he didn't go off to war somewhere and got out before Bush forced NZ to go off to war with him by way of threats to our prime minister at the time. He is doing well and working and brings in a good wage. The miltery is only a good option to get free training if you happen to do it when there's no war going on.

 

I'm gonna drop all this devil's advocate bulls*** for a moment. There's a time to argue and now is not one of them.

 

First off, I'm sorry about what happened to your friend, or if I offended. I sympathise. The truth is war should never happen, and since national service is an extension of war it should never happen either. Armies in general are an extension of war and world peace cannot truly happen so long as a single army or militia exists, conscripted or otherwise. Plus nobody - including governments, Presidents, prime ministers, kings and commanders - should have the right to make you point a gun at someone and tell you to pull the trigger, especially when you don't know or agree with the reason why.

 

Apology accepted I wasn't offended or anything I just see the lives it's ruined and god knows I wish the govts of this world would stop warring and start spending all the trillions of dollars spent on misery miserable war that blows people up and wrecks lives and spend it instead on more worthy things - like on improving the lives of the citizens and ridding polution. Think how much better the world could be if people accepted differences and didn't assume the worst. There will always be good and bad of every race of people you cannot judge all by a few. We all live in a sandbox, lets play nice instead of flinging dirt at eachother and bickering like a group of 2 year olds in a sandbox.

 

We only have one world, if we wreck it, there is no future.

[Vagrant0]

The truth is war should never happen, and since national service is an extension of war it should never happen either. Armies in general are an extension of war and world peace cannot truly happen so long as a single army or militia exists, conscripted or otherwise. Plus nobody - including governments, Presidents, prime ministers, kings and commanders - should have the right to make you point a gun at someone and tell you to pull the trigger, especially when you don't know or agree with the reason why.

That's horribly optimistic at best, extremely ignorant of how the world is outside your bubblewrapped home at worst, sorry to say. No, war is not a good thing, and it isn't right to be told to kill someone for any cause that you don't believe in.

 

But the reality is that we live in a world with scarce resources, limited wealth, and occasionally conflicting ideals or beliefs about everyone other than ourselves. In order to have, for example, clean water, food, a place to live, or the freedom to even have your own beliefs, you need to be willing to fight for them, or be willing to just let whomever comes along just take them from you. The reason why Middle Eastern groups (and some far eastern ones) engage in terrorist acts is entirely because Western countries HAVE an organized military to prevent outright invasion and oppression (see northern Africa).

 

The reality is that an army or militia is needed in order to defend a country's interests, resources, or ideals, both domestic and abroad. The reality is that in order for that group to work there has to be some organization where someone who (hopefully) understands all the implications of those actions is the one making the decisions. Without organized leadership you would only have chaos and destruction as individuals and factions go their own way and start fighting for power or their own beliefs of "right" (see Maoist China (1960's) and Red Guard). Or you'd have a grouping of pacifists ripe for subjugating (See Tibet).

 

I know the idea of being told to fight against someone else because you're told to, on foreign soil no less, is an unappealing concept for most. I also know that fighting for what is probably someone else's selfish reasons is also unappealing. But sometimes in life you have to deal with that part that you hate so that you can have that other part that is worth living for. If you aren't willing to deal with that part that you hate (in general), I'm afraid the alternatives are as follows:

 

1). Renounce the material world, become a monk, and hope that the place where your monastery is somewhere that your beliefs and practices are being defended by someone else of compatible beliefs.

 

2). Just stop living. Without work, money, or any place to be safe, you may as well be dead anyway. Why do you have to keep taking up all the oxygen instead of someone who is more willing to contribute to the general well being of others.

 

3). Become an anarchist, bounce from one crappy job that you hate to another just to fill your own stomach, be a burden on the very society that you want nothing to do with. Let "f*** the government! Give me my foodstamps for my 18 kids!" be your motto, and commit yourself to your own despicable selfish interests. And don't be surprised when someone stabs you in your sleep for those 6 dollars and a half-eaten sandwich under the overpass; they were only trying to ensure their own survival and proclaim their importance over yours.

 

4). Get stupidly rich, move to some godforsaken corner of the world where everyone else is piss poor and buy your way into being El Presidente. Hire your own military (who would gladly kill you for more money, or just because they got sick of your 1st world face), and just ignore the hypocrisy.

 

5). Grow up, realize that life sucks and that you are not the center of the universe, but instead just a small part of it. Come to terms with the fact that your worth and happiness can only come to light through hard effort, biting your tongue, and occasionally re-evaluating your own beliefs to understand why things happen, and why they can still be acceptable in the greater picture despite how wrong they are in the immediate contexts.

 

 

War should never happen, but as long as there is more than one person on this planet (assuming that person was able to maintain a single personality (or have multiple that understand the futility of conflict with eachother)) there will be war of some kind over whatever resources are scarce. Only the !kung bushmen were able to establish a society without wars, and that was only because they didn't have any resources at all, had a strong sense of family and kin, and instilled a philosophy of community over self (there would still always be interpersonal squabbles which would have to be mediated by another though). Conflict itself is in our blood.

[JimboUK]

Oh hell no, I'd rather go to jail than help further the interests of our self serving corrupt political class. Anyway in a democracy the state is supposed to serve the people, not the people serve the state, something that seems to have been forgotten.

[Vagrant0]

Oh hell no, I'd rather go to jail than help further the interests of our self serving corrupt political class. Anyway in a democracy the state is supposed to serve the people, not the people serve the state, something that seems to have been forgotten.

The state serves the people by establishing laws, empowering those to enforce them, creating publicly funded programs to support the needy, building roads and bridges so that you can travel without getting attacked or paying excessive tolls (we take everything you have and get to rape your wife/daughter/son, and you get to go on living), as well as respecting your right to criticize every decision made as if you had an informed opinion. Isn't first world ignorance bliss?

 

I understand where you are coming from, but you seem to be forgetting the vast amount of benefits which are allowed to you just for being a citizen and paying taxes. You know, the sorts of things which don't have to be offered to you, but which you would still pay taxes for or be executed (3rd world prisons are worse than just being shot there and then or just being beaten to death). Even those great prisons that we have, with heated cells, food, plumbing, exercise areas, and cable TV are paid through taxes and supported by that government you claim isn't doing anything for you.

[JimboUK]

Oh hell no, I'd rather go to jail than help further the interests of our self serving corrupt political class. Anyway in a democracy the state is supposed to serve the people, not the people serve the state, something that seems to have been forgotten.

The state serves the people by establishing laws, empowering those to enforce them, creating publicly funded programs to support the needy, building roads and bridges so that you can travel without getting attacked or paying excessive tolls (we take everything you have and get to rape your wife/daughter/son, and you get to go on living), as well as respecting your right to criticize every decision made as if you had an informed opinion. Isn't first world ignorance bliss?

 

I understand where you are coming from, but you seem to be forgetting the vast amount of benefits which are allowed to you just for being a citizen and paying taxes. You know, the sorts of things which don't have to be offered to you, but which you would still pay taxes for or be executed (3rd world prisons are worse than just being shot there and then or just being beaten to death). Even those great prisons that we have, with heated cells, food, plumbing, exercise areas, and cable TV are paid through taxes and supported by that government you claim isn't doing anything for you.

 

I have no problem with paying for essential services, I do have a problem when the suppliers of these services are given the contract based on lining the right pockets rather than on merit. Taxpayers in this country are having money stolen from them indirectly via kickbacks for contracts, contractors are being overpaid in return for party donations, the last government were even worse, they gave the unions taxpayers money via a "modernisation fund" and the unions then donated that money to the governing Labour party who had set up that fund. We have individual MPs stealing from the taxpayer via dodgy expense claims, crimes that would see your average Joe sent to jail. Then there's the E.U, an organisation so corrupt that auditors have refused to sign off on the accounts for the last 16 years. All this money is taken while people are being taxed so heavily that many can't afford to afford to eat properly or heat their homes in the winter. Britain is no better than those third world banana republics we so often like the criticise.

[Ghogiel]

3). Become an anarchist, bounce from one crappy job that you hate to another just to fill your own stomach, be a burden on the very society that you want nothing to do with. Let "f*** the government! Give me my foodstamps for my 18 kids!" be your motto, and commit yourself to your own despicable selfish interests. And don't be surprised when someone stabs you in your sleep for those 6 dollars and a half-eaten sandwich under the overpass; they were only trying to ensure their own survival and proclaim their importance over yours.

 

Anarchistism is the opposite of relying on the state lol. It is really about ultra capitalism and free market

[Vagrant0]

3). Become an anarchist, bounce from one crappy job that you hate to another just to fill your own stomach, be a burden on the very society that you want nothing to do with. Let "f*** the government! Give me my foodstamps for my 18 kids!" be your motto, and commit yourself to your own despicable selfish interests. And don't be surprised when someone stabs you in your sleep for those 6 dollars and a half-eaten sandwich under the overpass; they were only trying to ensure their own survival and proclaim their importance over yours.

 

Anarchistism is the opposite of relying on the state lol. It is really about ultra capitalism and free market

Which is also why it doesn't work very well in the greater context since those who are successful in a free market want to ensure their continued success and eventually have the resources available to bend the rules in their favor.

 

My foodstamps joke was partly to comment that at the common level, anarchists don't want to contribute to the state, or be governed by the laws, but would happily demand public services when their own ability to support themselves goes to crap (which it usually does).

 

 

@Jim_uk

Nobody ever said that the world was perfect, or even worked, but using favors and pulling strings is how a good portion of what does work still manages to get done. That's just the harsh truth regarding any significantly large organization that oversees any finite resource. Merits and capability don't mean much unless you also put forward some bargaining chips and get others to vouch for why you should be considered before others. This is why networking has become so extremely crucial toward any level of success in this day and age.