LE Mod Compatibility.

[Mujuro]

I believe we may be talking past one another. I've already got the framework for what you've outlined, but not with keywords, but with a similar token concept wired through a script that detects whether the follower(s) from (an)other mod is loaded, and then fills or clears certain aliases accordingly. What I was referring to was the next step, which is accessing/using the dialogue assets from other mods. Let's say mod A and mod B followers each use custom voice types with custom dialogue lines. What I've got already is the ability to mod A follower to recognize mod B follower; what I'd like to be able to do is have mod A follower have a conversation/interact with mod B follower, but be able to use the other mod's custom dialogue, and without having to access the other mods dialogue directly by FormID (which is what I'm doing now). Stated another way, my question was whether there was a way for SPIKE to serve as a dialogue proxy that would eliminate the need to access dialogue from other mods via FormID.

[IsharaMeradin]

@IsharaMeradin, using patches/wrye bash is fine for us because we’re all technically proficient by virtue of having earned our place on this private forum, but many gamers aren’t and I don’t want to limit their access to all our work if I don’t have to. There has been in the past within the on-line community an elitist attitude with a strong air of disdain for those who aren’t computer wizards (I'm NOT suggesting that you hold any such views); I’m trying to give those people access to the same variety of gaming experience as we have. I’m also trying to make it easy for us to accommodate them with a system for compatibility that’s easy to use.

For the example you cited, and all such situations, the easiest way to be compatible is for the mod authors to copy the vanilla form and modify the copy. Each version would have a keyword and either mod could react on finding it by enabling a combined version. I know changing both Mods to add the check and the alternate version seems like a lot of work, but it isn’t any more work than creating a patch and is much easier for any gamer to use. There will always be a place for patches; I’m trying to add to your options, not reduce or control them.

I still don't know how to use Wrye Bash to its fullest. I don't consider myself technically proficient (I can't even figure out Blender), I'm just here cause I released at least one mod. And honestly there would be no limiting of anything if people would take the time to write out some decent step by step instructions. The only limitation then would be the user who chose not to read and that falls on them then...

 

You need to prove that it will work in my cited situation. I just don't see it happening and still replace the stock arrow.

 

You say there will always be a place for patches, that is not how your article came across. As I read it, it seemed to indicate that it's method would be preferable than any of the others. I can understand it's benefit in certain scenarios such as leveled lists for custom weapons/armor, random dialog, possibly even different quest outcomes based on what keywords are active. But not on mods that are meant to modify a stock object directly. Perhaps you should amend your article to not be so harsh toward other methods?

[Eckss]

@Mujuro, even using keywords, if you absolutely must access the dialogue directly rather than by proxy as I suggested in the last post, you will inevitably need the form IDs. You could try putting the dialogue on a FormList and passing that list between Mods as a property in a function. If I come up with anything better, I’ll let you know.

 

@IsharaMeradin,

And honestly there would be no limiting of anything if people would take the time to write out some decent step by step instructions. The only limitation then would be the user who chose not to read and that falls on them then...

I disagree, Nexus is an international site and words don’t mean the same thing to everyone. I also disagree with excluding people from using Mods just because their reading skills might not be up to some arbitrary standard.

You need to prove that it will work in my cited situation. I just don't see it happening and still replace the stock arrow.

OK, here goes:

Mod A changes arrow by copying and editing copy, then overwriting the original while keeping the copy. Mod B does the same. You now have 2 versions of arrow copy loading up.

Either or both Mods have a simple arrow quest that fills aliases by keyword. If arrow copy A and arrow copy B’s aliases are filled, the quest returns arrow AB to the original arrow’s reference.

No patch required.

Perhaps you should amend your article to not be so harsh toward other methods?

I don’t see why you think this is so harsh

This requires the creation of a patch that must be used by anybody wishing to use the two Mods together. This patch will be specific to the two Mods involved and will need to be updated whenever either one of them is changed. This method tends to be very off-putting for many less-than-technically-expert gamers and can lead to them avoiding using these Mods together.

Patches do put many people off. You might be adventurous and confident in your ability with computers, but many less-than-technically-expert gamers aren’t. I have personal experience of exactly this situation with a friend of mine and he’s not alone in his techno-fear.

 

Eck.

[Mujuro]

@Mujuro, even using keywords, if you absolutely must access the dialogue directly rather than by proxy as I suggested in the last post, you will inevitably need the form IDs. You could try putting the dialogue on a FormList and passing that list between Mods as a property in a function. If I come up with anything better, I’ll let you know.

 

Well, it's not that I *must* access the dialogue directly, it's that I can think of no other way. I'm unable to think of a way to proxy those specific assets effectively and was hoping you had some thoughts. I'm not using the FormList approach for the dialogue though; my initial prototype uses arrays (I guess it's probably one of those half dozen here or there things, until someone tells me what I'm doing is dumb and there's a better, easier way :)), but similar concept.

[IsharaMeradin]

OK, here goes:

Mod A changes arrow by copying and editing copy, then overwriting the original while keeping the copy. Mod B does the same. You now have 2 versions of arrow copy loading up.

Either or both Mods have a simple arrow quest that fills aliases by keyword. If arrow copy A and arrow copy B’s aliases are filled, the quest returns arrow AB to the original arrow’s reference.

No patch required.

You now assume that the mod author knows how to make quests. What if the mod author only knows how to edit the original form? What then? Will you provide step by step support to get this mod author to the state in which he or she must be in order to do your process? I doubt it, since you yourself disagree with there being any kind of written step by step guide because of language.

 

With the requirements to delve into making quests for a simple arrow recipe, you've just alienated a large portion of would be mod authors, including me because I don't know how to do quests. The other problem is getting the other mod author(s) to agree to go along with the change. Not all mod authors want to redo their work. And if they gave permission to do the "keyword patch" (as I'll call your process) wouldn't it be better to just go ahead and make it one mod and be done? I suppose that depends on the mods in question...

 

Also there is no keyword on the recipe form other than the station to craft at. You can't change the recipe mid game. It either makes the original arrow or it makes the copy. Or you have two entries at the forge, one for the original and one for the copy, which is going to be more confusion on the player. If it's set up to make the original arrow it will point to the original item base and not some reference. You can't make a reference you can only make a base item.

 

The other mod and it's changes might work fine with the system, but crafting will not. Please prove me wrong.

 

I disagree, Nexus is an international site and words don’t mean the same thing to everyone. I also disagree with excluding people from using Mods just because their reading skills might not be up to some arbitrary standard.

You would rather there be no instructions? None at all? Try to make a mod without any kind of tutorial, even the ones that are lacking in description. Try installing a body mod onto a custom race. You'd get frustrated in a heartbeat and give up. No I stand by my statement that if there were decent step by step instructions there would be no limiting of anything. Even if the instructions were in a foreign language, there is always Google Translate to give a rough idea. The reader can always ask for further clarification as well.

 

The Parent Method.

 

This involves one Mod activating features in another by exploiting the Parent to Child relationship of objects. This is broken if the load order isn’t maintained and is subject to the vagaries of luck as the communication object may be altered by a game update or another Mod. It is also somewhat limited in the amount of information that can be transferred.

This is what I feel is harsh (highlighted part). It's on at least two of the descriptions of other methods that you outlined. You will have to explain how it is limited in information being transferred. If you properly parent one mod, you have access to all of that mod should you choose to use it.

 

Your "patch" method and, "compatibility" method are the same thing. They are created in the same way. Mod A is made the parent. Mod B applies its conflicting changes on top of Mod A's data. When saved it contains all of Mod A & part of Mod B. Its called a compatibility patch and plugin wise Mod A isn't needed, but it is needed for any other files loose or in BSA. As you described it, it's 'patch' from Mod B's viewpoint and 'compatibility' from Mod A's viewpoint.

 

As far as 'parent' both 'patch' and 'compatibility' fall under the 'parent' method. If you'd prefer to distinguish then you can refer to it as the Pure Parent where Mod A exists and Mod B utilizes as much of Mod A as they want and thus requires Mod A to be installed, but Mod A doesn't care one iota about Mod B. An example is Temptress Race needing Apachii Hair.

 

I also don't see how 'off putting' it is to install one mod first and another mod second. Seriously, there does need to be some reading on the part of the user. To just mash download and not bother to read is asking for trouble. There are incompatibilities to consider. Some mods weren't built with DLC content and may not work even if the mod author is still active and monitoring their mods for issues.

 

The real problem is lack of education. No matter how much you 'dumb down' the process there will be people who for one reason or another screw it up. This is why there needs to be available instructions on how to do things. Just because language is a barrier doesn't mean that instructions can't be written. I'm sure that many people would rather have instructions in at least one language so that it could be translated even roughly by Google Translate than to not have anything at all.

 

You claim that the people in this particular section of the forum are "all technically proficient by virtue of having earned our place on this private forum". I beg to differ. Anyone who releases a mod no matter what it does, gets access to this forum. My first mod was a script mod, but that doesn't mean I knew how to use Papyrus before hand. Doesn't mean I know how to use Papyrus now either. It just means that I stumbled around with trial and error till finally getting something that would chop wood till carrying capacity by weight was reached. What does that say? It says that there was something I wanted to accomplish and I stuck with it till I achieved it. Doesn't make me "technically proficient", but rather determined.

 

I'm not saying that anything is wrong with your system and where it works I hope it will work better than having to use WB to merge lists etc... Its just that its a new way, it has no step by step instruction (only has some rough general statements to put forth the idea) to take someone thru using it and frankly it is a little "off putting". The amount of rework required coupled with having to learn a whole new aspect of the CK is what is daunting. I'm already frustrated with the lack of Skyrim specific Blender tutorials (none walk you thru the actual editing of a mesh) that having to learn something else is overwhelming.

 

To be honest what you may find is already released mods not getting updated to this process, but rather replaced by new mods, whose authors have gained the permission of the old authors to use and modify their assets.

[Grimoa]

Without having read the whole thread (will do later) and only a glimpse at the article, does the SPIKE system in any way work like Expired's Race Compatibility? With my little knowledge it looks quite similar. Just curious and at some point I'd like to understand this fully.

[Ironman5000]

Well if I read everything right then it all seems fine, I can't relate to the quest dialogue discussions as i've never noticed any problems with that. If I were to use this it would primarily be for the weapon, armour, misc, vendor etc. levelled list recognition.

 

If this became really popular though wouldn't you be swamped with several files a day from various authors wanted to involve their assigned keywords to SPIKE? It sounds like it would be a lot of work especially for the larger mods like the two I mentioned first, although I suppose big mods like this don't come along all that often and tend to take week/months to complete. Obviously I know standalone 'crafting to gain' mods would be exempt as these are readily compatible (which some people don't get!) but with this system it would be easy to add these kinds of mods to the levelled lists so that they will appear all through the game - like my nexus weapon overhaul mod, which I have left alone for now because I hoping for some easier way to do this.

 

So say I wanted to do this now - Would I be going into my mod and manually add keywords to the many custom items in my mod while deleting the levelled list edits then send it to you or would you sort out the keywords so you can keep things better organized on your end? Sorry if already spelled this out i'm still learning :tongue:

Edited October 6, 2012 by Ironman5000

[IsharaMeradin]

Obviously I know standalone 'crafting to gain' mods would be exempt as these are readily compatible (which some people don't get!)

If you are subtly referring to me, then explain what I don't get.

 

non-dawnguard arrows do not have the weapon material type keyword so when the recipe is made they automatically go to the misc category. In order to make them show in the proper category the appropriate keyword must be added to the base arrow item form. Its this little addition that can make the mod incompatible with any other mod which changes the base arrow item form.

 

With what the OP explained as the workaround with his system, it would be much easier for the author of the crafting mod to say screw it and rebuild their mod without the weapon material type keyword and just leave the arrows to clutter in the misc category.

[Eckss]

@Mujuro, do you not have the cooperation of the other mod author? I suppose that must be it, otherwise you could just split the conversation between the two Mods. I presume the other author is also unwilling to allow you to just include their dialogue assets in your mod. Without the cooperation of the other mod author, I think you’re probably doing all you can already. I’ll let you know if I think of anything else, good luck.

 

@IsharaMeradin, I’m sorry you feel frustrated, that wasn’t my intent at all. I’m beginning to think that I’ve done or said something to offend you. If so, please let me know what it is and I’ll let you know whether it was intentional or not. I don’t wish to tell you who you should or should not be offended by, but if it’s me I’d at least like to know why.

 

The article is only meant to explain the basic idea of SPIKE, not to provide an instruction set for using the system. I’m starting from a position of not even knowing if anyone is interested in using SPIKE. I haven’t provided step-by-step instructions because, so far, no-one’s asked me to. I don’t see the point in going to that kind of effort if no-one’s interested in using the system. That’s why I wrote the article in the way I did, to explain the basic idea and to see if anyone’s interested in using it.

 

As to my definitions of the different methods for compatibility, I just used the ones I could find in my research and categorised them in the way I did because that’s how I found them when I searched on-line for a way to make Mods work together.

 

To address your specific concern over my characterisation of the Parent Method as somewhat limited, I’m not talking about using one mod as a Parent Master for another. I’m talking about the method where one Mod alters the state of a vanilla object in a forgotten corner of a dummy cell and another Mod checks that object’s state to see if the first Mod is present. The second Mod typically sets the chosen object as a Parent object to some kind of toggle that the second Mod uses to enable, or disable, various features when it does, or does not, detect the first Mod’s presence by the state of the agreed upon object. I wasn’t trying to explain how to use this method in one short paragraph, merely to point out to Mod authors familiar with it that I had considered it and found it lacking as it merely lets other Mods detect the presence or absence of the Mod in question. This method has apparently been around since before Skyrim.

 

It’s been my experience that most people don’t really read the words in front of them; they merely skim them and guess at the meaning, filtering it through their expectations and assumptions. That’s just how the human brain works. If it didn’t, we’d all take forever just to read one book. (I know some gifted and/or autistic people can devour whole paragraphs at a glance and repeat them verbatim, but most can’t.) I don’t think normal levels of education even touch on this phenomenon, so educating people won’t help and I don’t think it’s fair to blame someone for getting the wrong end of the stick when it’s something that 99% of our species does every day. We’re all only human and if you expect us to be anything else, you’re only setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration.

 

@Grimoa, that looks very interesting, I’ll definitely give it a closer look if I decide to make a custom race. From what I can see Expired’s Mod provides a script for people to use with their custom race Mods that is designed to ensure that everyone is compatible. I didn’t see anything suggesting that it allows Mods to pass each other information, which is what SPIKE does.

 

If anyone would like to use SPIKE, or to find out more, I’m happy to oblige.

Eck.

[Ironman5000]

@ IsharaMeradin: I was referring to new item edits rather than changing vanilla data, which would be assigned their own keywords. I don't really know what the plan is with vanilla edits. Edited October 6, 2012 by Ironman5000