Why do the Stormcloaks attack Whiterun?

[Khorak]

Personally, I think that the Rift has the prime agricultural land in Skyrim, its pretty much a forest, and as such, can sustain crops (and indeed does, it has numerous farms). While Whiterun does seem to prove capable of sustaining a serious agricultural industry, even Rorik suggests that it is not the most naturally fertile hold. Combine that with the fishing and mead industries, and you've got a hold capable of sustaining sustaining Skyrim in its own right (perhaps some work may have to go into it though).

 

Like I said, realistically the Rift and Falkreath, after this long, would have had huge amounts of land cleared away if the place made a lick of sense. They certainly should be far less wild than they are shown to be. Bethesda appear to have gotten hung up with this idea of 'wild Skyrim' to the extent that it is no longer at all possible to contemplate that it is supposed to be wealthy, powerful, and populous. Nords are straight up the backbone of the Empire, and have also provincially been more than powerful enough not just to compete with any other province, but continually make attempts at creating their own empire.

 

It's no wonder people scream until they're blue in the face that Skyrim can't hope to hold off the Thalmor, when Bethesda take a huge dump on their own background in order to portray it as bumblef*** nowhere, and the Nords themselves as barely civilised.

 

Also, while Whiterun's walls are collapsing, am I the only one to suggest that it doesn't need them? I sits right on top of a plateau. What will walls do, make its slightly higher? I think it should instead focus on creating a series of defenses lading up to its main gates, ad of course, occupy and rebuild Fort Greymoor.

 

So does the Krak des Chevaliers, and that's got walls. Walls are essential to control enemy ingress, and become even more important on such a naturally defensible position in order to make yourself even more hilariously impossible to assail. Without walls, enemies can attempt to enter the city from absolutely any point they want during a siege ('plateau' does not mean 'sheer cliffs'); combined with a general assault, this utterly negates the defenders advantages. When the enemy have obtained general access to your position like that, it's GG. It is not necessarily the deplorable state of the external walls themselves at Whiterun, but their defenses at the gate. The gate is the single most important position in the entire city, and the defenses there are more broken down than anywhere else. The Great War was only 26 years ago, there's a civil war brewing, and yet in all that time Balgruuf has quite clearly done absolutely nothing. So utterly pathetic are the fortifications at the gate, that they can in fact be entirely bypassed by scaling the hill on the other side of the road approach, which would also provide you ample cover up until you're on top of anyone stupid enough to still be out there.

 

Ulfric did not 'turn' in favor of the Thalmor, they interrogated (and tortured) him. Imagine (seriously, actually think about it) that you have been captured by the Nazis early in WW2 (invasion of France, Barbarossa, whatever). They believe you have important information, and torture you in order to get it. That's effectively the situation Ulfric was in.

 

The inability of people to grasp such an incredibly obvious and simplistic thing as the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric is....simply mind boggling to the point of willful delusion. I just cannot conceive of the mental gymnastics required to come to the conclusions people come to with it. It's absurdly clear. Ulfric captured, Ulfric tortured into dispensing information which was already useless anyway (though, he must be dumber than a rock if he never subsequently found out that the Imperial City had been taken before he was broken), Ulfric feels bad. Thalmor start considering Ulfric to be an asset. Ulfric is approached by Thalmor. Ulfric suddenly becomes 'uncooperative' and embarks on a 'kill every ****ing Thalmor in Tamriel' crusade.

 

Oh well obviously a guy suddenly turning 'uncooperative' to the extent of trying to cut the nipples off every Thalmor he finds, is highly indicative of him being a Thalmor agent.

"Oh hey, Ulfric, we've got an idea; kill us as much as you can. No seriously, infiltrating the Empire at some of the highest levels can't possibly be useful. Rouse up the entire province of Skyrim in religious fuelled opposition to every single one of our objectives and, by extension, every human in Tamriel. We're absolutely sure this will....somehow be more useful."

 

And yes, his rebellion does fall in line with their plans. However, did not the Viet Minh and Al Qaeda fall in line with the plans of the US? Just because the Thalmor want the Stormcloaks to weaken the Empire, doesn't mean that they will just create a bigger problem down the track.

 

As they specifically note, their plans are served only by hostilities continuing. Their plans are nailed no matter which side you resolve the issue in favour of. Either the Empire is strengthened (and if Tullius is any indication, will then be kicking off for round two), or Skyrim becomes a psychopathic military juggernaught fuelled by religious rage, pointed right at the Thalmor.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Khorak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Also, while Whiterun's walls are collapsing, am I the only one to suggest that it doesn't need them? I sits right on top of a plateau. What will walls do, make its slightly higher? I think it should instead focus on creating a series of defenses lading up to its main gates, ad of course, occupy and rebuild Fort Greymoor.

 

So does the Krak des Chevaliers, and that's got walls. Walls are essential to control enemy ingress, and become even more important on such a naturally defensible position in order to make yourself even more hilariously impossible to assail. Without walls, enemies can attempt to enter the city from absolutely any point they want during a siege ('plateau' does not mean 'sheer cliffs'); combined with a general assault, this utterly negates the defenders advantages. When the enemy have obtained general access to your position like that, it's GG. It is not necessarily the deplorable state of the external walls themselves at Whiterun, but their defenses at the gate. The gate is the single most important position in the entire city, and the defenses there are more broken down than anywhere else. The Great War was only 26 years ago, there's a civil war brewing, and yet in all that time Balgruuf has quite clearly done absolutely nothing. So utterly pathetic are the fortifications at the gate, that they can in fact be entirely bypassed by scaling the hill on the other side of the road approach, which would also provide you ample cover up until you're on top of anyone stupid enough to still be out there.

 

Good point.

 

I've just gotten to thinking, another thing he could have done (but didn;t) was fortify his own palace. It is in a position to control the entire city, so even if an enemy managed to take the gates, a few ballistas with a company of archers would be able to decimate any attacking force (at the very least, making their victory much more hard won).

[sajuukkhar9000]

Good point.

 

I've just gotten to thinking, another thing he could have done (but didn;t) was fortify his own palace. It is in a position to control the entire city, so even if an enemy managed to take the gates, a few ballistas with a company of archers would be able to decimate any attacking force (at the very least, making their victory much more hard won).

Given that the Great War never made it to Skyrim, and the Civil War is only a couple months in with no clear sign of any side actually wanting to attack Whiterun for fear they might join the other, it isnt that hard to belive that Balgruff did nothing.

 

Had Alduin Epoch-Eater not shown up, which no one could have expected, Ulfric would be dead, the civil war would be over with a clear Empire victory, and Balgruff would have had to do nothing.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RighthandofSithis]

Good point.

 

I've just gotten to thinking, another thing he could have done (but didn;t) was fortify his own palace. It is in a position to control the entire city, so even if an enemy managed to take the gates, a few ballistas with a company of archers would be able to decimate any attacking force (at the very least, making their victory much more hard won).

Given that the Great War never made it to Skyrim, and the Civil War is only a couple months in with no clear sign of any side actually wanting to attack Whiterun for fear they might join the other, it isnt that hard to belive that Balgruff did nothing.

 

Had Alduin Epoch-Eater not shown up, which no one could have expected, Ulfric would be dead, the civil war would be over with a clear Empire victory, and Balgruff would have had to do nothing.

 

Just to nit-pick, a number of NPCs suggest that the war has been going on for several years. I suppose only recently has it really heated up though.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Just to nit-pick, a number of NPCs suggest that the war has been going on for several years. I suppose only recently has it really heated up though.

Yes, I do know what you mean, there does seem to be some discrepancy between when the civil war actually started.

 

From what I made of it the Stormcloaks as a group had been around for awhile, furthering Ulfric's agenda, and occasionally getting into spouts with The Empire, but the Civil War proper didn't begin until Ulfric killed the High King, not to long ago.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RighthandofSithis]

Just to nit-pick, a number of NPCs suggest that the war has been going on for several years. I suppose only recently has it really heated up though.

Yes, I do know what you mean, there does seem to be some discrepancy between when the civil war actually started.

 

From what I made of it the Stormcloaks as a group had been around for awhile, furthering Ulfric's agenda, and occasionally getting into spouts with The Empire, but the Civil War proper didn't begin until Ulfric killed the High King, not to long ago.

 

I fear I am missing an obvious document or statement from an NPC, but is there any exact date given in-game for the death of Torygg?

[sajuukkhar9000]

I fear I am missing an obvious document or statement from an NPC, but is there any exact date given in-game for the death of Torygg?

I will have to search through the CK to find the line, but I recall his death happened somewhat recently, certainly not years ago.

 

On the top of my head however I know Viarmo, or w/e his name is from the Bard's College, treats it as though this is the first year that the burning of King Olaf festival wouldn't occur, the whole death of Roggvir when you first enter solitude wouldn't make much sense if the high king was killed years ago either.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RighthandofSithis]

I fear I am missing an obvious document or statement from an NPC, but is there any exact date given in-game for the death of Torygg?

I will have to search through the CK to find the line, but I recall his death happened somewhat recently, certainly not years ago.

 

Don't bother. If it doesn't immediately spring to mind, its not a question that needs serious attention.

Edited October 8, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[DavidBlack]

Just to nit-pick, a number of NPCs suggest that the war has been going on for several years. I suppose only recently has it really heated up though.

Yes, I do know what you mean, there does seem to be some discrepancy between when the civil war actually started.

 

From what I made of it the Stormcloaks as a group had been around for awhile, furthering Ulfric's agenda, and occasionally getting into spouts with The Empire, but the Civil War proper didn't begin until Ulfric killed the High King, not to long ago.

 

It seems like the logical reaction of skyrims nords as the Imperial influence slowly spreads across the region from Solitude, in most countries that are militantly annexed the majority of the residential citizens are resistant to the changes that the occupying force impose on them.

 

It has happened many times in our history, a particularly similar example would be the IRA consisting of Irish volunteers (aka Stormcloaks) who were in opposition of the British (aka Imperial) control and imposition of their own government, which lead to the Irish War of Independence which was fought as a guerilla style civil war, very much like the Stormcloak uprising in Skyrim.

[sajuukkhar9000]

It seems like the logical reaction of skyrims nords as the Imperial influence slowly spreads across the region from Solitude, in most countries that are militantly annexed the majority of the residential citizens are resistant to the changes that the occupying force impose on them.

 

It has happened many times in our history, a particularly similar example would be the IRA consisting of Irish volunteers (aka Stormcloaks) who were in opposition of the British (aka Imperial) control and imposition of their own government, which lead to the Irish War of Independence which was fought as a guerilla style civil war, very much like the Stormcloak uprising in Skyrim.

Well Skyrim became part of The Empire during the First Era, its been Imperialized for like.... 4,000 years.

 

Also, the vast majority of people in Skyrim have a very "we don't give a s*** about either side we just want the war to be over" attitude about the whole thing. Its really only a small minority that has strong feelings one way or the other.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000