Is beauty lore-unfriendly?

[Thasic]

Personally, I play games I paid for the way I like to play them. I rarely criticize others for doing the same. As to my choices in the poll:

 

1) I like my character, my companions and the NPCs I deal with to be attractive. I look at any CRPG like a good movie or TV show. Take game of Thrones for instance. The players on that show are all darned good looking, with a few exceptions. Realistic? Maybe not but it does make the show more enjoyable. So "Yes!" to making NPCs attractive.

 

2) Is Skimpy armor lore friendly? Probably. That is not to say it's realistic. Anyone that has even a small knowledge of ancient warfare knows armor tended to be bulky and big and left little skin exposed. However, from a fantasy literature stand point, skimpy armor and exotic weapons are the way of things. Look at any fantasy artwork that depicts medieval arms and armor. The men show lots of chest, brawny thighs and beefy arms. The women (when in armor at all) show deep cleavage, smooth stomachs and plenty of leg. Since this is a fantasy game, the portrayal of some skin while in armor is certainly the norm. As for my own personal tastes, see 1 above.

 

3) As far as modern clothes and cutesy/ anime stuff, not my personal taste so, no, I don't use it. But if others want to to, more power to them. They paid their money they can play the game however they want. There is no 'cheating' or incorrect way to play a game that doesn't have an opponent. Go ahead and do whatever enhances your enjoyment of the game.

[StayFrosty05]

I would just add that plate armor and knights disappear from the battlefield only after the advent of firearms and the "mass armies" (but after that, they disappear quickly). The Knights were highly professional warriors, exercise and trained for this work from childhood. Their physical fitness was at similar level as today's "Special Forces". There are known cases where they fought in armor even a few hours in the middle of battle (on foot, I note).

Plate armor is to be worn quite well, as far as is well-made - and it was almost always well-made, because they were generally made egronomically for the owner.

 

I occasionally fence ("gothic fencing" - sword and shield) and I can say one thing - against a warrior with a shield the fencer with the rapier (or katana) does no chance. The shield is a huge advantage... I'd say that the shield and art of wielding the shield is more important than armor. Yes, wielding the shield is art...

Stayfrosty - jump over the enemy ... is a nice film trick, but in real duels fighter will tried this just once one time - last time. It's physically impossible *except you are an superhuman* - for this it is necessary jump from place to a height at least 2.5-3 meters and 4-5 meters into the distance. And rivals can just set the sword... In reality - fast, quickly and bloody end of duel.

 

But back to theme.

It's okay if some of the characters (from the plugins) are nicer than others. But, do not overdo this - beauty is relative category. Likewise should be some nasty characters, uglier than others. Also, there is "missing" some cripples, beggars, ugly witches and humans alike. Beggars in the game seem more like as work-shy or good-for-nothing, than actually poor or helpless people.

 

"Skimpy armor" and "cute clothes"

I'm not directly against them, just it's "nice" and it's good for looking at it, but it must have an sense and logic. It acts inappropriately, if this clad figures will moving through the Snows plains in the snow storm, but in an temple, palace or commonly in building, and for some "higher class" people it is quite acceptable. Houses and various buildings are built for the long cold winter, so they are well insulated and have a pleasant warmth. But Skyrim is a cold region, so people will move out in appropriately warm clothing, thus skimpy armor and cute clothes are only for "domestic use" and special occasion.

 

Anime clothing and modern clothing

I think - rather not.

 

 

And if the combat and abilities in Skyrim were a little more realistic, I would certainly agree with you.... :happy: ....so far though it's the closest I have gotten to some form of speedy dodge ability and that was from a mod...there is no dodge in Skyrim.....such a shame actually, I love tactics and flow,,,,thank god for mods.... :happy: ....would love to see more realism in the moves though, but don't know how to do it myself and don't know if it even could be done with the mechanics available.

 

As for some characters looking nicer than others....I guess I am lucky there that I am female and thus feel no compunction or need to forest my game with beautiful women...and as it is the females the majority of modders seem to prefer to concentrate on in regards to 'attractive NPC's and PC's'...I'm in the clear because I really don't care.... :tongue: ....NPC's, I don't really care how they look....Admittedly my male Dovahkin is eye candy to me though.... :turned:

 

I had a chat with hubby about the heavy metal armors....he works in the field of metals and their structure and applications....as he noted, the Heavily Armored Knights worked with an entourage in tow....yes, the armor was fitted and yes the bearers of this armor were fit, but they were slower to move and were pretty much sitting ducks if on their own....in a group they were a formidable and unstoppable force...but alone...no.....The Romans kept their same design for a long period of time and it proved very effective...the effectiveness was the combination of Armor with freedom of movement though...the stomach was banded and the legs skirted for a start....giving them much freer movement in abdomen and legs....something to be said for that.

[FishBiter]

You mentioned you were looking for mods that help promote an agility based style of play, so here's some things that maybe you haven't found yet:

 

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/20923 TK Dodge. This allows you to... well, dodge! You can do so either by holding a modifier key and then the directional keys, or by double tapping the directional keys. I had to modify the ini that comes with it (ez to do) so that it would respond to my fast double taps. The author still actively updates it, so it might even get more neat features in the future.

 

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/164 Higher Jumping, has various esps to make you jump higher. You might allready use this since you mentioned jumping. It may not be realistic in our world to jump over someone's head in a fight, but in skyrim we have things like woodelves and khajits who could realistically have the ability to jump much higher than a normal human.

 

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/19668 Sprint and Jump; makes it so you can jump longer and higher if you jump while sprinting. Has a tendency to react slowly sometimes, think it might be slower the more other scripts you have running.

 

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9286 Skyrim Redone! Makes a lot of really cool changes to the game; among those changes are some Light Armor and Marksmanship perk changes that help to promote an agility-based style of play, in addition to fatigue causing you to move slower. Modular, the changes are spread out over several .esps so you can pick what you like.

 

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/5485 Deadly Combat, among other changes makes your attacks stagger opponents more often, meaning if you're quicker on the draw than they are you can avoid catching a warhammer to the head when practicing guerilla style tactics.

 

Use any or none as you feel will improve your expirience :)

 

 

AND ON TOPIC... :tongue:

 

Several people have mentioned skimpy armor being a bad idea in Skyrim due to its cold temperature. There is one race where I wonder if that's even realistic, and that is the Nords. They have that racial resistance to frost. Now what does that mean... that means if you blast them with magical cold, which is so frosty that it can kill someone in a few seconds, it takes twice as long to kill that Nord with it. If they have such a high degree of resistance to that level of frosty intensity, wouldn't it stand to reason that they have some level of resistance to more mundane levels of cold?

 

I would also mention khajits because they have fur, but I do believe they come from a homeland comprised of tropical/desert climates, so their fur probably isn't made for colder climates.

[musicalfrog7]

For the sake of realism and lore?

 

No, people in Skyrim are not going to be attractive. These people are living in a time before modern medicine, cars, and easily attainable food. It doesn't mean that everyone is going to be unattractive, just most people. This is because the stresses of their every day life are greater than ours. There was an article and picture comparison of a very beautiful young girl in a third world country and then a comparison picture of how she aged. I tried to grab a hold of the picture but could not find it.

 

I don't even need to say that skimpy or anime armor would be lore-unfriendly, because they are.

 

 

That said, there's nothing necessarily wrong about making people in your game pretty or wearing skimpy armor. It's just not lore-friendly.

[Semtex]

StayFrosty - sorry if I sound like an attack on your style of play (I do not speak English).

 

The game can not be "realistic" in principle - the fencing is an art, requiring strength, dexterity, observation - and experience. It's impossible to achieve / solve reality via the keyboard and mouse. The game just has its own rules and restrictions. Rules are given for the evaluation of actions, limitations then are in the possibilities of activities - and in the knowledge of gamemakers on fencing (make no mistake - they are weak). But I do not blame them - they are doing best, what they can do, with what they have available. Motion capture is quite expensive affair for equipment, time-consuming and requires the actor skilled in the performed activity, and perform actions "really", with full dedication of speed and strength. (Deterrent example can be animations for mining ore - it's the movement of "be careful to not damage anything".)

For combat animation would be best to scan not only one actor, but a some different pairs attacker - defender.

 

With one friend we made video and photos from the performance of one "historical fencing group." They are semiprofessionals, and their performances are really good (much better than in most movies). It's still not a real fight, but rather it is literally a "ballet with weapons". Actions are pre-arranged and rehearsed, half-hour show is rehearsing since the autumn, through the winter and spring - until the next summer season.

The fight is gradually joined a dozen or so people, like characters knight, his squire, four robbers, farmer, teamster... In another sequence, they acted like the musketeers and bandits.

At home, we then explored the videos and photos - there were over three thousand shares attack-defense. The event was repeated, but in different combinations - "attacking" swordsman began an attack action, followed by the opponents defense and attack movement ended, depending on what the defense used by the defending swordsman. The point is that those offensive actions ends were different responses to different defensive actions.

So, combat sequence is that: there is an offensive action first, then an "random" or "controled" defensive action, then response reaction or "hit to defender" reaction. This may included numerous body movement too...

I have no idea how it could be that the number of possible events (animation sequences and its combination) reasonably converted into computer games. And especially I have no idea how to manage it through the console controller or via the keyboard and mouse. Perhaps it could be done through Kinect and a pair of the Wii Remote console controllers.

 

As I wrote, sometimes I'll go to fence. There are some people who take it really seriously - wear costumes, costumes wear also their wives / husbands and children (on some events pay strict "costume law/duty"), cook in a pan, baked on a spit ... and have full metal armor. It is expensive - very simple full armor for "the poor knight" costs around € 5,000 if it is "made for friend".

One such armor I occasionaly wore all day - in the armor is very hot because under armor I have worn padded bottom clothing. But still, that I wore over 17 kg of steel, it was not as hard as it seems - I am was more limited by thick bottom padded clothing from fabric and leather than by metal armor itself. The armor on the body appears to be much lighter than carried in a backpack.

 

It is also true that for wear armor is good have an helper. Knight also didn't traveled himself, was a nobleman, he was usually accompanied by servant/s, he has squire, maybe by some other "lower" fighters, and by other people (musicians, bards... women too...).

So it was such a small caravan with several riders, with several freight horses or mules, perhaps with an carriage - group about dozen or more people, mostly armed. The group traveled quite safely, smaller group of bandits prefers to avoid them. So, knight not needed wear full armor for all time.

 

But the problem is slightly different - the game is not reality, and creators it "improved" by that: armor is one item - almost all parts are together and "under armor" is "nothing". So there is no simple way in game how to regulate the wearing of armor and his discomfort.

 

The Romans

The Romans were the pawns and used a large shield that at the beginning of the fight to protect the essential parts of the body, fought in serried phalanx - hit in the thigh was unlikely. In close combat they was cut mostly from top and stabbed directly - for lateral movements there was no room. Their armor has been adapted to his fighting style - was enough durable where it was needed, but while still light enough that it could be used in long fight and march.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Semtex

[StayFrosty05]

StayFrosty - sorry if I sound like an attack on your style of play (I do not speak English).

 

 

I didn't feel attacked Semtex.... :happy: ....was just agreeing with you that it is unrealistic, but has been the closest I can get to what I am looking for.....What I really want more than anything is a side roll....like you I have had some experience also with swordsmanship (you most likely much more so)....Katana's to be exact....was a part of the Marital Arts I was doing....side rolls and forward rolls to standing combat ready position whilst wielding a sword is easy enough for closing distance fast and dodge....and that's what I would love to have in game.....Real combat tactics are impossible to duplicate in a game as you say, but a few dodge and agility inclusions would go a long way towards being much less of a soft target when going up against the heavily armed and armored and would make light armor a more realistic choice.....Agility versus Power as such, that would be a good fitting game mechanic I feel when it comes to choosing light or heavy armors.

[StayFrosty05]

@ Fishbiter......Thank you.... :happy: ...I do know all those mods actually.... :happy: ....

 

The TK I was unhappy with the animation as it still throws you out of combat range and isn't very elegant...I do keep an eye on it watching for improvements, I check up on it once in a while.

 

The Higher Jumping doesn't work with the Front Flip....have tried it.... :happy: ....Yes, I am not too sure about jumping height capacity....I play a Nord with a race height adjuster mod....I also set my Nord to Altmer height, so he pretty much towers over the shorter races....such as Bosmer and Dunmer...in reality he may in fact be able to clear the shorter races....I do doubt those closer to his own height though.... :tongue: ....The first opponent I actually tried the Front Flip clearance on was a Dunmer (archer) actually, this was when I found out he could clear an opponent....he had some very nasty Werewolf Hunters (Boss included) hot on his tail and a couple of Bandit Chiefs ahead of him, was on a narrow bridge...it was a do or die situation.... :ohdear: ....Cleared the Dunmer, made another leap for a rock to the side of the bridge then sat back and watched the show as the Hunters and Chiefs wiped each other out.... :biggrin:

 

Sprint and Jump Mod....I have been working on trying to use that....I use a controller (just cannot get the hang of keyboard and mouse) and need an Xpadder to use the this mod...it's a work in progress.... :happy:

 

Deadly Combat....There is a small selection of mods I use that achieve the same end....have what it offers covered.... :happy:

 

Your mention of Nord Frost resistance....it maybe also worth mentioning that a number of colder northern European climes Warriors IRL often did fight in next to nothing...I do suspect that was more so a show of bravado than anything...show no fear or weakness in the face of your enemy, etc, etc...I am not speaking Siberia cold....more so some Germanic and Scottish....such as the Picts....As for the Skyrim Nords though, I see no reason why they couldn't....50% frost resistance is quite a lot considering.....It would only stand to reason that climatic cold would not effect them that much.

Edited October 20, 2012 by StayFrosty05

[Thasic]

People are saying attractive characters and skimpy armor isn't "Lore" friendly. What exactly does that mean? This is a fantasy game. It is not attempting to reflect real life. It is trying to portray fantasy life. Sure, there is limited medicine but there is MAGIC. Magic is medicine in fantasy. Magic can produce or enhance food quality and production. It is certainly possible everyone in this fantasy world is healthy and well fed due to magic. Heck any idiot can concoct a potion of cure disease or healing. Even the barkeeper in Riverwood knows how to make potions.

 

As far as skimpy armor, like I pointed out in my first post, in just about all fantasy literature and artwork armor is shown as extremely skimpy. Anybody here ever heard of Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo, Jeff Easley, the Hildebrandt brothers just to name a few of the more famous artists. These guys ARE fantasy art. They are the people that created the fantasy look. Their armor is tight, sexy and shows lots of skin. Is it realistic, of course not, but it is the lore behind all fantasy including games. If by lore friendly people mean realistic than the entire game is not lore friendly. There are no dragons or magic or Skyrim for that matter. So if people want that kind of lore friendly they are certainly playing the wrong game.

[gizmologist]

My two cents: Of course it's lore-unfriendly! But so what?

[musicalfrog7]

People are saying attractive characters and skimpy armor isn't "Lore" friendly. What exactly does that mean? This is a fantasy game. It is not attempting to reflect real life. It is trying to portray fantasy life. Sure, there is limited medicine but there is MAGIC. Magic is medicine in fantasy. Magic can produce or enhance food quality and production. It is certainly possible everyone in this fantasy world is healthy and well fed due to magic. Heck any idiot can concoct a potion of cure disease or healing. Even the barkeeper in Riverwood knows how to make potions.

 

As far as skimpy armor, like I pointed out in my first post, in just about all fantasy literature and artwork armor is shown as extremely skimpy. Anybody here ever heard of Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo, Jeff Easley, the Hildebrandt brothers just to name a few of the more famous artists. These guys ARE fantasy art. They are the people that created the fantasy look. Their armor is tight, sexy and shows lots of skin. Is it realistic, of course not, but it is the lore behind all fantasy including games. If by lore friendly people mean realistic than the entire game is not lore friendly. There are no dragons or magic or Skyrim for that matter. So if people want that kind of lore friendly they are certainly playing the wrong game.

 

 

This isn't that fantasy universe though. The TES series is much grittier than most traditional fantasy universes. Realism, consistency, and believability are huge factors for the more serious and more dark fantasy universes. And I'd also like to note that not all fantasy universes are the same. Some rely very heavily on magic and other crazy fantastical aspects. While others are more realistic. For instance, you can't really compare a fantasy universe like.....A Song of Ice and Fire to.....Final Fantasy.

 

I do think that TES is closer to A Song of Ice and Fire than Final Fantasy. And perhaps that is not too surprising seeing as we have many Game of Thrones mods. (Game of Thrones is the first book of the A Song of Ice and Fire series)

 

In TES, magic is not an overpowering element of the world. It is mysterious and the mages aren't all that numerous. Someone else on this forum has mentioned that regular citizens of Skyrim are even fearful of magic. Although I am not sure what source he has gotten this from?

 

People live and act like they are in the medieval ages. (without the sexism) The farmers look like farmers, not mages. And the more magical creatures in the world are deadly and spell doom for those who are not equipped to deal with them.

 

So if people want that kind of lore friendly they are certainly playing the wrong game.

 

They are playing the right game actually. This is the perfect game for roleplaying and immersion. It has a huge world to adventure and do whatever in. It has mods to enhance the experience with if you so choose.

 

Skimpiness is optional. But not really lore-friendly. And it's fine if you don't feel everything needs to be lore-friendly.

 

But it's not lore-friendly. For example, how can you have asian things in the game if there is no Asia in Tamriel? People who enjoy lore and lore friendly enjoy being immersed into the world and to have things in the world be consistent. Once you take away that consistence, it's no longer lore-friendly.