The Immersion Fad (Rant)

[The6thMessenger]

Rant Ahead!

Before you start, don't get me wrong, I respect each and everyone's preferences. If they want FO4 to be as "realistic" as they want, as in mirroring so much of our real world instead of following the lore divergence, then more power to you!

 

But lately, at least on Beth-Net, I came across someone, who did not liked my Overhaul because it wasn't Immersive, and these are his points:

 

- Telescopic Scope on Double Barrel

- Double Barrel should only fire Buckshot

- 10mm Pistol should only fire 10mm

- It was irritating that I would harm Immersion, to use high-level ammo instead when buffing the base-damage would suffice.

 

Seriously? Don't you think if I was trying to be immersive, i would have done a more immersive mod? Its like going off on a Thomas the Tank Engine Vertibird for not being immersive -- that is precisely the god damn point.

 

But then of course, at the question of immersion. I've done my fair share of non-immersive mods, but of all examples, he has to point out the Double Barrel should only be firing buckshots, the Telescopic Scope is stupid on a double-barrel, the 10mm should only fire 10mm, and buffing base damage would suffice.

 

First off, buffing base damage, would just break the game at the early level if it was balanced at end-game. Ammo switching is one way to keep weapons relevant for longer without having to sacrifice early game balance. It is also an opportunity to keep the weapon fresh if it is doing something different, like a 50-Cal on a Double-Barrel like an elephant gun.

 

And then there is the damn Ammo-Switching. Really? There is Glock that has numerous calibers, the M1911 has been retooled from .45 ACP to 10mm Auto (Bren 10), .38-Supers that are common in Practical Shooting,9mm with some RIA M1911s. Etc. The Desert Eagle, which the 10mm Pistol had been closely based from, fires .50 AE, .440 Cor-Bon, .44-Mag, and .357 Mag, so why is it firing .44-Mag with less capacity not immersive? People in the real world can rechamber hand-guns, even Bethesda did provide optional features of rechambering.

 

And then most of all, the Double-Barrel, nevermind the fact there are actually multiple load types of a shotgun-shell, the Double-Barrel (break-action) system is one of the simple gun designs out there, firearms after all is just a matter of propelling a projectile, and the complicated ones is just a question of how to quickly load and unload rounds. There had been Double-Barrels that use rifle rounds, even express rounds, they are called Double-Rifles -- others are Elephant Guns, and they are in fact had been used with telescopic sights. The Double-Barrel is far easier to retool for longer cartridge as opposed of the other auto-loading ones because its simple and relies on manual reloading, you have the entire length of the barrel at your disposal -- its far more believable to use a .50-BMG with a properly rechambered Double-Barrel shotgun.

Is this the average Immersion-Jockeys? Just superficial look of the modern weapons without understanding how firearms work? The guys who liked to dress up their AR15 like a god-damn Barbie doll, but wont understand how it works?

 

Nevermind the elitism with Immersion and the following incapacity to respect what the mod tries to do, and the preference of others. He doesn't even know how firearms work to know what is Immersive or not! And he has the gall to be irritated to an entire line of mod that is not made for his preference.

 

/rant

Edited October 22, 2019 by jim_uk

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[JimboUK]

@ The6thMessenger I edited a slur out of your post, could you use that word again?

[The6thMessenger]

@ The6thMessenger I edited a slur out of your post, could you use that word again?

 

I dont understand it, is it a dare, a threat, or are you honestly asking me to repeat it?

 

I remember the word "Retarded" was that it? Or would you like the word "Intellectually Disabled"? It'll be less offensive and actually funny, while retaining the meaning.

 

their is a significant difference between immersion and realism, they are not the same thing but are connected.

 

Immersion = something trying to mimic Realism (ie real life) the word can only exist in a gaming scenerio. the word itself is fake. and is used by gamers to describe something that is trying to mimic real life by making something believable.

 

Realism = Something that does exist in the real world, and fully conforms to the very thing it is defined as. however this word can be used in multiple different scenarios, and is not exclusively used in a gaming scenario unlike immersion.

 

people typically think immersion is something from a game world that is completely realistic, but that is not what immersion is, immersion is literally making something believable. but not outright real.

 

simply put, Immersion is an act or method to make something believable, but only believable. if it becomes completely realistic, then it is no longer immersion, it is now classed as realism.

 

where as realism is something that is absolutely believable because it is based on something that exists in the real world and fully conforms to that ideal.

 

anyway with that said, immersion is completely and utterly redundant from a real world stand point, because it is a gaming term and can only exist in a gaming scenario, which means absolutely nothing in the real world, so people getting upset over non-Immersive mods, is ridiculous.

 

gaming is supposed to take you away from the real world and put you into a digital world, where real life should not be mixed with fantasy stuff, you play games for fun and their is no limit to what is perceived as acceptable or not with regards to realism, such as a 10mm pistol firing mini nukes, this is acceptable in a gaming scenerio, but completely cannot exist in the real world, and that is completely fine, because games are supposed to be fun and fake, granting the player no limitations, the game no longer becomes a game when it must conform to real life. what is the point in playing games when everything must be realistic in every sense of the word, it completely destroys the very reason why games exist in the first place and the very definition of the word game.

 

case in point, their is a very fine line between how much realism you can have in a game, before it no longer becomes a game.

 

Getting upset over non-immersive/ fake mods is completely redundant.

 

But, like you said, its connected. Semantics in this context doesn't exactly practically relevant in the matter. Divergent as FO4's lore may be, we still use the connection with What-is-Real to understand What-Is-In-The-Game, as in what did you actually achieved by such a distinction? Nothing. Realistic or Immersive, within context, within practical use, they are basically the same.

 

We still got the usual standard ballistic combustion-based firearms that still follow what we know about real life -- case and point, Bethesda implemented Ammo-Conversions, albeit poorly. It IS part of the lore, part of the game. I cannot say that a 10mm Pistol converted to a 44-Magnum to be realistic, because N99 does not exist in the real world, there is no way to tell until we actually get the real N99, it is however believable to be convertible to 44-Magnum, because we have a stand-in with the real-world for it. Double-Rifles are actually an old concept as old as Double-Barrels because the two are basically the same concept differing only in ammo, it is reasonable to expect and assume that they are still within the history.

 

I am well aware of the distinction between Immersion/Immersive with Realism/Realistic.

 

But, yes, I agree, people getting upset over non-immersive mod is ridiculous. However the crux of my issue with said guy is the poor knowledge about it, a snob that's just feigning sophistication. Screw the dude.

Edited October 22, 2019 by The6thMessenger

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[The6thMessenger]

1 thing to always bare in mind, we create mods primarily for ourselves, and only share them to share the love, whilst always keeping the sole reason why it exists in the first place always in mind. which is for ourselves. you are the most important person when it comes to feedback over your own mods, above all else, now depending on just how much your mod is made for you, depends on how much feedback is important, if you made the mod strictly for yourself only, then all feedback is absolutely redundant. the balance is how much your mod is created with end users in mind.

 

so if people do not like your mod, they can simply move along. negative comments are redundant, and should be ignored completely (the only exception is constructive criticism which is important for both you and the end users, as it will allow you to improve your own mods, whilst simultaneously creating a better product), but aside from that we created our mods primarily for ourselves, and as such negative comments do not mean anything. positive comments on the other hand does mean something as it can greatly boost enthusiasm on your creations, and also make you feel good knowing somebody is enjoying your content. but even that is based on how much your creation is to you.

 

the only time creating something for public is more important then our own thoughts on our products, is for self gain, which usually revolves around money, that is the only time negative comments matter. we share our mods for free, but it costs us the most important of all, Time.

 

so creating a rant post, shows that you have then created your mod for the end user over creating it for yourself. which is an issue in itself, not only are you giving the end user power, by being effected by something that really should not affect you, keeping in mind what i have said above this paragraph, but you have made that person more important then yourself, which should never be the case when creating a mod and giving it the the public for free.

 

again, unless your mod is released to the public with the intention of making self gains, such as money, credit etc etc, negative comments should not affect you at all.

 

lastly, we humans are absolutely never happy, with absolutely anything (can be blamed on the world we live in, but either way its a bad design). the audacity to moan over something that is completely free is ridiculous (and happens more often then not, not too mention entitlement), to get offended by that is equally as ridiculous, with the context of user feedback over the internet that you do not know personally.

 

negative comments, entitlement etc etc is literally letters, written by someone you will never know, see, or hear of in the real word, so with that in mind, the post means absolutely nothing at all.

 

you need to be strong minded and smart in this world (in general), getting offended by text by someone you will never see in the real world is a weakness, especially applicable to the internet, because you do not know these people, you will probably never see them, they are just entities in a digital world, they should mean absolutely nothing to you.

 

Why are you shifting? You go on about Semantics, and then now personal offense. Its like you're all over the place.

 

You can treat them as "just letters/text" all you like, look down from your moral high-ground. Guess what, still as nothing as pointing out the distinction of Immersion and Realism as it is used within the discussion. Its funny how you'd be overly critical with language the first post, and then dismissive the next.

 

As I had been pointing out, I am simply quite appalled by people like that, that's about it.

 

Its never about the mod itself, but how entitled these immersion-jockeys are. I am pissed off with people intolerant to other people's preference -- their intolerance is bad by the way. I am pissed when someone is talking stuff to me that they don't really understand, as I had explained the guy knew little about firearms work.

 

I reserve the right to get pissed. Am I giving them power over me? Fine. Whatever. Keep your high-ground.

 

Screw that dude still.

Edited October 22, 2019 by The6thMessenger

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[StormWolf01]

Ok, there's a lot of points in this post that I feel need to be touched on. Please forgive me if my ADD riddled brain gets my thoughts all askew.

 

First tho I have to ask, is your gripe about the people who assume that "immersion" means everything? Or with the person who criticized your mod, because it didn't fit with their ideal of it?

I personally cannot stand that word. It's everywhere, like a virus. Back when I was releasing mods, it was all about "lore". Then, it was all about lore, and "cannon". There are still those, who will argue those two topics until they are blue in the face.

My opinion, is **CK that **it. Immersion be damned, play what you wanna play.

 

Ok, what I say next, is not intended directly towards you, so please don't take this as me trying to flame you. But anybody who mods and releases those mods, must accept 3 things above anything else. 1) That person needs to have thick skin. If you release something to the public, you have to be ready to take criticism. Especially in today's environment of crazy people's mentalities.

2) You cannot please everybody. There will always be at least 1 person that has to find a problem somewhere, or something about something that they don't like. And they'll want it changed, because it doesn't suit THEM.

3) Placeholder. ADD got me, and I can't remember what 3 was gonna be.

 

For lack of a better term, I'm just gonna refer to players who use mods as customers. You are ALWAYS gonna have customers who are never satisfied. If you try to please one, you end up ticking off a different one. It's just not worth the effort, if it's not something that is really truly wrong with the mod. AND, in today's environment, you have a butt-load of customers who are over-privileged, too-entitled, opinionated little sh**s. Who think that the world revolves around them, and their snowflake soft-skinned little feelings are the only ones that matter.

There's a reason why some modders on here, won't release their mods on bethesda. The community over there, being full of the aforementioned customers, is part of why that is.

The nexus used to have a pretty fair share of those too. Until the staff took the stance of "If you don't like it, close the page". And would stick to that by cracking down on it.

 

Now, let me say....overhauls are always gonna be controversial. There's always gonna be something about an overhaul that doesn't suit somebody. They're never perfect for everybody. And, rather than not playing with the overhaul, they're gonna complain about it, and expect the modder to change it to suit their own perceptions.

 

To those types of customers... they can stfu. They can either chose to not play with a mod that doesn't suit their individual tastes and preferences. Or they can learn to mod. Make a mod that does suit their own tastes and preferences. Because honestly, to those that know how to do this stuff, if they're too lazy to learn how to do it themselves, then we can be too lazy to listen to them whine about it.

[The6thMessenger]

 

First tho I have to ask, is your gripe about the people who assume that "immersion" means everything? Or with the person who criticized your mod, because it didn't fit with their ideal of it?

I personally cannot stand that word. It's everywhere, like a virus. Back when I was releasing mods, it was all about "lore". Then, it was all about lore, and "cannon". There are still those, who will argue those two topics until they are blue in the face.

My opinion, is **CK that **it. Immersion be damned, play what you wanna play.

 

Personally, I dont care what people want. It seems to be like an elitist thing to be completely all up about immersion, but to each our own.

 

 

 

Ok, what I say next, is not intended directly towards you, so please don't take this as me trying to flame you. But anybody who mods and releases those mods, must accept 3 things above anything else. 1) That person needs to have thick skin. If you release something to the public, you have to be ready to take criticism. Especially in today's environment of crazy people's mentalities.

2) You cannot please everybody. There will always be at least 1 person that has to find a problem somewhere, or something about something that they don't like. And they'll want it changed, because it doesn't suit THEM.

 

For lack of a better term, I'm just gonna refer to players who use mods as customers. You are ALWAYS gonna have customers who are never satisfied. If you try to please one, you end up ticking off a different one. It's just not worth the effort, if it's not something that is really truly wrong with the mod. AND, in today's environment, you have a butt-load of customers who are over-privileged, too-entitled, opinionated little sh**s. Who think that the world revolves around them, and their snowflake soft-skinned little feelings are the only ones that matter.

There's a reason why some modders on here, won't release their mods on bethesda. The community over there, being full of the aforementioned customers, is part of why that is.

The nexus used to have a pretty fair share of those too. Until the staff took the stance of "If you don't like it, close the page". And would stick to that by cracking down on it.

 

Here is the thing, I didn't really care about the immersion demand. You seem to be rather hung up on that, so we can't move forward. I accept criticism, so long as its on point. I am well aware that I cannot please everyone, and I am sure as hell not pleasing the Immersion crowd.

 

But again, and again, I am quite pissed with the gall of the guy to talk about immersion, who knows little about it. Its like random feckless young-adults talking pop-psychology to a real psychologist/psychometrician, I reserve the right to be pissed off with these kind of people, the shallow ones.

 

 

Now, let me say....overhauls are always gonna be controversial. There's always gonna be something about an overhaul that doesn't suit somebody. They're never perfect for everybody. And, rather than not playing with the overhaul, they're gonna complain about it, and expect the modder to change it to suit their own perceptions.

 

To those types of customers... they can stfu. They can either chose to not play with a mod that doesn't suit their individual tastes and preferences. Or they can learn to mod. Make a mod that does suit their own tastes and preferences. Because honestly, to those that know how to do this stuff, if they're too lazy to learn how to do it themselves, then we can be too lazy to listen to them whine about it.

 

I am well aware.

 

Do you know why I mod? Aside from tuning the game as I wanted it, I want to teach people how to deal with the solution my own way. I did the Overhauls project way-back, and now, for some inexplicable reason, people still do not understand that damage-by-mod-properties is additive that multiplicative with many different other mods, that if you switched from a 45-Cal to a 308-Win, the other damage-mods will not scale properly to the damage change offered by the ammo-change. My Multiplicative Damage Tables perk approach solves that problem.

 

And then there is just that attempt of Bethesda of weapon mods that I wanted to expand with. Much of the gun modifications I did is those I wished that I could do in real life. I am a Gun-Nut.

 

Then some a**hat who doesn't mod, demonstrates his lack of knowledge about the subject, tries to talk down to someone who is more knowledgeable and the one who is actually putting oneself out there. Screw that guy. I am not looking for everyone's approval, but god damn, the entitlement of that shallow f***.

 

Are all Immersion-Crowds like that? Nothing more than superficial knowledge about the subject?

[StormWolf01]

 

 

Here is the thing, I didn't really care about the immersion demand. You seem to be rather hung up on that, so we can't move forward. I accept criticism, so long as its on point. I am well aware that I cannot please everyone, and I am sure as hell not pleasing the Immersion crowd.

I think you are on the wrong tangent friend. Because what I said about immersion, and what you've just posted about it, is in sync. It seems to me like we both agree on the subject, and we both seem to share an opinion of what they can do with their "immersion".

So yeah. I think you took my post wrong. If so, say so. Otherwise, yeah... you're right, no sense in even me bothering to reply further.