Your views on ending human life: when is it acceptable? A debate about

[BlackBaron2]

I am a poor, disabled person and I am very angry that people like me are being used to curtail pregnant people's right to their own bodies. Yes, Western society in general hates people like me and refers to us as scroungers, a drain on the system, worthless, disgusting, and so on.

 

However. I am not comparable to someone directly using somebody else's organs without permission. An unwanted pregnancy=foetus is using the pregnant person's body without their consent. Pregnancy is also hardly risk-free and people's bodies go through hell during that and birth regardless of complications (morning sickness, increased difficulty performing daily activities) so you know, I don't blame people who don't want to go through it.

 

The "concern" anti-choicers claim to have for people like me would be almost touching if they didn't only care about ensuring the baby is born as opposed to ensuring that the family will be able to get food and shelter after the birth--and if they didn't make up stories about "welfare queens" and refer to those like me as lazy good-for-nothing scroungers who don't deserve to eat as well.

[BlackBaron2]

I'm still waiting for a logically sound reason for the difference between an unborn child and the other examples I have given. All you keep saying is that an unborn child is inside it's mother as though this were some sort of crime.

 

Once again, whether the parasite is feeding on, in or remotely is irrelevant. The affect remains the same: feeding off it's host in order to survive.

 

I gave you one. A person cannot be forced to let someone else use their organs. You must've missed that. I've also said how absolutely irritated I am that you've used the poor and the disabled (I'm both!) to try to justify banning abortion. I'm not your rhetorical device nor anyone else's, I'm a real person and resent the analogy.

[ginnyfizz]

Really? De Facto Euthanasia without consent not rare? (Not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm expressing genuine surprise). Within the medical system that I'm currently studying in, euthanasia without consent is extremely rare. Illicit euthanasia does happen, but more often than not, it is performed legally (it is legal in Belgium).

 

However, illicit euthanasia is more prevalent in countries where it is illegal (I believe that is the case in the UK). Keep in mind that there is a difference between DNR and euthanasia. Yes, withdrawing life-support is passive euthanasia, but I'm curious, do you have statistics for how often this happens without consent? Because from what I know of other medical systems, systems where it is illegal, euthanasia without consent is very rare (Note that in case of brain-death, withdrawing life-support is not passive euthanasia, but might misconstrued as such).

 

I know this because my uncle is a doctor in a country where active euthanasia is illegal. However, illicit active euthanasia with consent by patients happens. Not regularly, but it happens. However, he said that he has never heard of been involved in a case in which any form of euthanasia was performed without consent.

 

You are splitting hairs. The two frequently blur into one another. And it is actually more or less government policy in the UK, unpublicised until a group of unhappy doctors blew it wide open, to draw up death lists;-

 

Doctors putting patients on death lists

 

Irrespective of the fact that assisted death is illegal, it is happening and the Government are encouraging it. And as for statistics, well we have a saying that doctors bury their mistakes, you could modify that to say that they bury their assisted deaths and, in this day and age where families may be very far away, it is not always discovered. Since the reports of the Death List came out, a number of families have gone public with the fact that they have arrived at the hospital to find that their loved one has had feeding and hydration removed without consent. There is no other way to describe it other than euthanasia. Especially since there have been reports that some have been told "Well we need the bed..."

 

I guess that group of GP's blowing the whistle may well halt the policy in its tracks. It may not be common, but one case is one too many.

 

@BlackBaron2, it grinds my gears too when I hear "scroungers" blabbered about. I am claiming Jobseekers myself at the moment, I am also disabled. My rheumatology nurse consultant told me that my condition has worsened to the extent that I should be on Incapacity Benefit, but I think, what's the point when they will try and force me back onto Jobseekers as soon as they possibly can?

[Beaviz81]

I have seen a 19 yo slowly get her life sucked out of her from cancer. Then I knew there were worse things than death. She was basically a sack of bones for 1.5 years before death finally gave her relief, I understand the holiness of life, but there are limits in my opinion.

[ginnyfizz]

Not if the patient has not made a clear expression of wish and it is a case of the medical staff deciding arbitrarily. One of the recent cases in the UK where the family are taking action involved a young mother who was terminally ill but in no immediate likelihood of dying. Not until the medical staff, without any consultation, withdrew treatment, feeding and fluids. I trust that the charge will be manslaughter at the very least.

[Syco21]

@BlackBaron2 & GinnyFizz:

 

Great! Take offense! I think it's offensive to refer to unborn children as parasites. I find the complete disregard for them appalling. But fact of the matter is, those groups of people do fit under the definition of parasite. My entire argument has been that just because someone can be considered a parasite, doesn't mean they should have no rights. Whether you contribute more than you take, you are still human and you still have those basic human rights. Just like an unborn child.

 

Personally, I feel people ought to take responsibility for their actions. Now as I have stated earlier, I am fine with early term abortions. It is the late term abortions I feel should be outlawed with a very few exceptions. If you have sex, but don't use condoms, don't use the pill, don't use the morning after pill and wait 4-5 months to have an abortion, well that's your own damn fault.

 

I can't remember if the debate about government footing the bill for female contraceptives was in this thread or another. But I'm going to address it here.

 

Should the government buy me condoms? Should they pay for the snip? No, they shouldn't. So why the hell should they cover female contraceptives? If a woman wants to go out and have sex, let her buy her own contraceptives. Same as men.

 

Now, I fully support things like unemployment, universal healthcare, food stamps and housing assistance etc. But I don't think the government should be paying for abortions because a woman decided she doesn't want to be pregnant. If it is medically necessary or if it was a rape, then sure. By all means, they should pay for it.

[Nintii]

@BlackBaron2 & GinnyFizz:

 

Great! Take offense! I think it's offensive to refer to unborn children as parasites. I find the complete disregard for them appalling. But fact of the matter is, those groups of people do fit under the definition of parasite. My entire argument has been that just because someone can be considered a parasite, doesn't mean they should have no rights. Whether you contribute more than you take, you are still human and you still have those basic human rights. Just like an unborn child.

 

Personally, I feel people ought to take responsibility for their actions. Now as I have stated earlier, I am fine with early term abortions. It is the late term abortions I feel should be outlawed with a very few exceptions. If you have sex, but don't use condoms, don't use the pill, don't use the morning after pill and wait 4-5 months to have an abortion, well that's your own damn fault.

 

I can't remember if the debate about government footing the bill for female contraceptives was in this thread or another. But I'm going to address it here.

 

Should the government buy me condoms? Should they pay for the snip? No, they shouldn't. So why the hell should they cover female contraceptives? If a woman wants to go out and have sex, let her buy her own contraceptives. Same as men.

 

Now, I fully support things like unemployment, universal healthcare, food stamps and housing assistance etc. But I don't think the government should be paying for abortions because a woman decided she doesn't want to be pregnant. If it is medically necessary or if it was a rape, then sure. By all means, they should pay for it.

 

 

I couldn't have stated it better ... to view a human life as some form of leech that's illegally using and sucking the life forces from my body to grow, absolutely

staggers me ... that is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my life.

That which is meant to give life is now a form of intense loathing ?

I doubt that there is a woman alive who views it this way, even those who want an abortion ... how on earth are conclusions like this ever reached ?!

I can only imagine that this must arise from a heart of self hatred.

 

The answer to unwanted pregnancies is to keep your legs closed or sterilization ... you want it you pay for it.

 

As to ending a human life, I understand that there is a point where people are in so much suffering that no drug can ease the pain ... whew this is a tough one but I would have to say "Yes" to it.

 

Kudos to you Syco21

Edited October 31, 2012 by Nintii

[ginnyfizz]

You amaze me, Nintii, I don't think it is acceptable to call anyone a parasite, have never used that term and nor did I actually say that an unborn child is a parasite, so I just can't quite figure out where Syco21 is coming from. In fact it's doubly baffling since actually his views and mine are about the same in regards to abortion, IIRC I have already said that I view the use of it as just an alternative means of contraception, as a first resort, with dismay. I'm none too happy about late abortions either, although it should be said that in peri menopausal women where the menstrual periods have become irregular, it is not unknown for a pregnancy to be mistaken for cessation of the menses. In such a case,agonizing dilemmas can arise.

[mellowtraumatic]

I couldn't have stated it better ... to view a human life as some form of leech that's illegally using and sucking the life forces from my body to grow, absolutely

staggers me ... that is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my life.

That which is meant to give life is now a form of intense loathing ?

I doubt that there is a woman alive who views it this way, even those who want an abortion ... how on earth are conclusions like this ever reached ?!

I can only imagine that this must arise from a heart of self hatred.

 

The answer to unwanted pregnancies is to keep your legs closed or sterilization ... you want it you pay for it.

 

As to ending a human life, I understand that there is a point where people are in so much suffering that no drug can ease the pain ... whew this is a tough one but I would have to say "Yes" to it.

 

Kudos to you Syco21

 

*shrugs* Personally I thought Dutch was talking about that in a strictly clinical sense. We have lots of organisms that live in our body, that subsist off of us. There is no real negative connotation to be made from that observation. It just is. And also not every woman in the world is in awe of the magic of pregnancy and child birth. Myself, I always kind of viewed like a little alien growing inside you. ;D

[Nintii]

You amaze me, Nintii, I don't think it is acceptable to call anyone a parasite, have never used that term and nor did I actually say that an unborn child is a parasite, so I just can't quite figure out where Syco21 is coming from. In fact it's doubly baffling since actually his views and mine are about the same in regards to abortion, IIRC I have already said that I view the use of it as just an alternative means of contraception, as a first resort, with dismay. I'm none too happy about late abortions either, although it should be said that in peri menopausal women where the menstrual periods have become irregular, it is not unknown for a pregnancy to be mistaken for cessation of the menses. In such a case,agonizing dilemmas can arise.

 

Granted, pregnancy during peri menopause does have it's risks and therefore, I'm inclined to save the mother at the expense of the child should it become

life threatening, but only then.

No, let me clarify myself, any life threating situation to the mother during pregnancy should always result in the saving of the mother's life first.

And yes, I do agree it is unacceptable to call anyone a parasite, I meant to remove that but on a whole Syco21's viewpoint was what won me over as the

sheer disregard for life is becoming more and more prevalent these days.

Where I live it is NOT uncommon to find some woman dumping her newborn into the trash can ... and I mean into a genuine rubbish bin ... just to keep

the two bit loser of a the man in her life who finds the idea of responsibility abhorrent..

 

@ mellowtraumatic ... lol, you've got me thinking of watching the Alien Quadrilogy again.

 

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff434/yuri-chick/1979_alien_012.jpg