Guild Wars

[StayFrosty05]

What Guilds do you love to join or never do and why do you join or avoid them?

[Brandy1123]

I really think the mages college is one of the worst inventions by Bethesda. They did put a lot of time into it, but is quite rediculous in effect. I know other guilds are equally along the rediculous theme, the mage one I avoid altogether. I did play through it my seconds time playing just to get all the walls. I became the Guild Master, the Gand Puba, The Shiznit, the Oz of Skyrim, with 100 magery skill and four basic spells. Healing, lightning, ward 1 and heal other (because heal other was my cross the bridge quest and ward 1 was required as part of the wizard quest. I used 2 items to boost my magery enough to cast Heal other and ward. Three and a half hours later, I was guild master. Of all the guilds, this one should require mastery in at least TWO/FOUR areas, if not all six (alchemy and enchanting). Its just another indication of Bethesda dumbing down the game for console users and or people who no longer think deeply enough to want to spend 3 weeks of real time accomplishing something worh while. The other guilds, as stated, are equally a let down. I would expect the Mages guild to be above that with all the power you eventually SHOULD have at your fingertips. But no, I completed it as an archer, while only three time casting a spell (all required). To cross the bridge, to put up a ward, and to blow open the acient magically locked door before (just before finding the Eye of Magnus) gaining my "Doctrin in Magic arts", uhm, I mean Guild Master. By the way, which not even Farengar even realizes. "You should join the mages college...." . You Dolt, I'm your boss!!!.

 

I typically do not join gulds anymore do to unrealism in the time it takes to become the grand and glorious leader of it (not to mention of them all simultaneously). When I did, I like the companions or the Thieves guild. The latter because I did enjoy the final portions and the unexpected twists you encountered. I do think the Assassins guild is the best laid out guild path, but again, the time it takes to beccome this and the trust you must really instill to become that leader is a short day at best. Also the end of the Assassins guild quest is the worst (best) let down I have ever experienced. Just kill Astrid in the abandon house, take the dagger and move on. You should at least have the option of releasing the prisoners.

[Inquart]

I agree with Brandy_123 about the College of Winterhold - it's usually the very last guild I join, with the Companions being always the first one, mainly because they happen to reside in first major city we visit after escaping Helgen and because they somehow appeal to me with all that fraternity, honor, courage in battle and all. Their questline could have been done a little bit better, maybe by making our good, old Kodlak more prominent (I always have a feeling that the potential of that character was left largely unused, especially after reading his journal and regrets about his lack of contact with Dovahkiin - he could have been like mentor to Dragonborn before, watch out for spoilers, going to Sovngarde instead of just talking to us once or twice, giving us that quest with wiping out Glenmoril Coven and dying soon after) and with putting greater emphasis on somehow infiltrating and dealing with Silver Hand afterwards (like we did with Blackwood Company back in Oblivion). I think our showdown with the Silver Hand could have and should have been more...well, epic than just "go there with Vilkas and kill them all for Kodlak"; I mean, revenge is great reason to wipe them all out, but it should have been preceded by a longer questline involving taking out their commanders and things like that (yes, I know that Aela sends us after some Silver Hand leader after Skjor's death, but for me, it's still leaves some kind of dissatisfaction).

 

Same with other guilds - remember Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood questlines from Oblivion? Meeting finally with the Gray Fox? Infiltrating that monastery full of Ancestor Moths? Or something from Dark Brotherhood's side - killing those six people while looking for non-existing treasure, extracting the Brotherhood's late revenge upon retired Adamus Phillida, the Purification? Thieves' Guild and the Brotherhood in Skyrim are good, too, but for me, their respective questlines in Oblivion were somewhat better planed, well-thought-out, deeper, if you will.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Inquart

[sajuukkhar9000]

I don't particularly hate any guild in Skyrim, I do find them a bit short, but the stories that blow Oblivion's out of the water make up for it.

 

As for the order I joi nthe guilds, I usually do it Companions, College, DB, thieves guild.

 

and I only do the Thieves guild last because it is the longest, doing those nearly 40 random quests in order to become guild master can take awhile, and I like keeping my journal organized with quest from the same guild next to each other, so doing the thieves gild last helps with that.

[Kraeten]

I don't particularly hate any guild in Skyrim, I do find them a bit short, but the stories that blow Oblivion's out of the water make up for it.

 

Your opinions on these "stories" obviously varies considerably from my own. As far as I'm concerned, every faction questline in Skyrim is inferior to Oblivion's.

 

Companions = Recovering axe shards and curing a certain disease. Woop dee darn do. The Silver Hand isn't fleshed out at all. Ysgramor may as well not be mentioned at all for all the character's influence over the story.

Fighter's Guild = Solving a murder and defeating the Blackwood company. More characters, longer questline, the antagonists have more depth than a piece of paper.

 

Mage's College = Stopping a power hungry elf and his dangerous glowing ball of doom. Woop dee darn do.

Arcane University = Thwarting the King of Worms, an evil necromancer.

 

Riften Thieves Guild = Bringing a traitor to justice, restoring luck to the guild. Yet another quest that involves servitude to a daedra. To Skyrim's credit however, this is by far one of the stronger quest lines.

Cyrodiil's Thieves Guild = Help the Gray Fox, a character similar to Robin Hood, steal an Elder Scroll from the White Gold Tower. What's not to like? Actually involves lots of thievery quests, *gasp*.

 

Addressing the OP's question, I often do the Companion's first followed by the Thieves guild. The others I usually avoid like the plague.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Kraeten

[sajuukkhar9000]

I could write a essay detailing everything thematically, and logically, wrong with Oblivion's Guilds, which is to say everyone was way to white knight about everything, and the motivations behind the guilds actions was either not explained, or thematically wrong.

 

Thieves guild

-Morrowind: A bunch of thugs who hung out in bars and stole stuff to make a profit, and manipulated the fighters guild to break off from the comma tong.

-Skyrim: A bunch of thugs who hung out in bars and stole stuff to make a profit, and stopped one of their own from destroying the guild.

-Oblivion: Oh wait, Oblivion didn't have a thieves guild, a thieves guild is a guild of people who steal stuff to make a profit, what Oblivion had was a Robin Hood society, that was more focuses on helping the poor then being real thieves. Furthermore everything you did was to help the Grey Fox, and not the guild itself. you stole a Elder Scroll only for the GF to use it once, and then basically throw it away. Why not use it to make a profit as a thief would? Nothing about the thieves guild in Oblivion had any thematic connection to any other thieves guild, they were only thieves in name.

 

Fighters Guild

-Morrowind: a bunch of mercenaries, many with shady backgrounds, who do jobs for profit, even ones that might not be legal.

-Skyrim: a bunch of mercenaries, with a dark secret, who do jobs for profit, even if it means beating the s*** out of people in fist fights.

-Oblivion:A bunch of white night/paladin wannabes who cared about JUSTICE more then profit, who only attacked an opposing guild because they guild was doing a better job then them and using drugs. Bethesda managed to turn what was supposed to be a questline about a bunch of mercs killing stuff into an anti-drug public service announcement backed by a group of paladin wannabes.

 

Mages guild

-Morrowind: A group of mages who offered some services to outsiders yet was mostly focused on getting knowledge/power for themselves

-Skyrim: A group of mages who offered some services to outsides yet was mostly focused on gaining knowledge for themselves and stooped an evil thalmor wizard from destroying the world

-Oblivion: A group of mages who, for no reason, banned necromancy, despite necromancy being legal and not that hated for ages which allowed Mannimarco, WHO SHOULD BE DEAD/A GOD as per Daggerfall, who exploit the banned necromancers to join his ranks. The problem with Oblivion mages guild is that the entire reason for banning necromancy is never justified, it just was, and it just was seemingly so Bethesda could use the very tired, and Un-Elder Scrolls like trope of "necromancers are generic badguys", furthermore Mannimarco being alive makes no sense at all given what happened to him in Daggerfall, and on top of that he was such a pushover.

 

 

The problem with Oblivion's guilds is the same problem Oblivion had in general, everyone, everything, every faction, was either a super generic goody two shoes/white knight/merry sue good guys, or equally generic "we are necromancers/drug users/oppressors of the poor blah fear us" evil.

 

Oblivion lacked any sort of depth of character, and the guild plots were either thematically wrong in every way with the guild's nature, or simply had no logic behind the reasons that started the questline in the first place.

 

Skyrim's guilds may be shorter, but they are

1. Thematically correct

2. Have less holes then Swiss cheese, or Oblivion's plot, did.

3. aren't full of one dimensional merry sues.

Edited October 27, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Inquart]

I don't particularly hate any guild in Skyrim, I do find them a bit short, but the stories that blow Oblivion's out of the water make up for it.

 

Your opinions on these "stories" obviously varies considerably from my own. As far as I'm concerned, every faction questline in Skyrim is inferior to Oblivion's.

 

Companions = Recovering axe shards and curing a certain disease. Woop dee darn do. The Silver Hand isn't fleshed out at all. Ysgramor may as well not be mentioned at all for all the character's influence over the story.

Fighter's Guild = Solving a murder and defeating the Blackwood company. More characters, longer questline, the antagonists have more depth than a piece of paper.

 

Mage's College = Stopping a power hungry elf and his dangerous glowing ball of doom. Woop dee darn do.

Arcane University = Thwarting the King of Worms, an evil necromancer.

 

Riften Thieves Guild = Bringing a traitor to justice, restoring luck to the guild. Yet another quest that involves servitude to a daedra. To Skyrim's credit however, this is by far one of the stronger quest lines.

Cyrodiil's Thieves Guild = Help the Gray Fox, a character similar to Robin Hood, steal an Elder Scroll from the White Gold Tower. What's not to like? Actually involves lots of thievery quests, *gasp*.

 

Addressing the OP's question, I often do the Companion's first followed by the Thieves guild. The others I usually avoid like the plague.

 

My point exactly.

[Kraeten]

I could write a essay detailing everything thematically, and logically, wrong with Oblivion's Guilds, which is to say everyone was way to white knight about everything, and the motivations behind the guilds actions was either not explained, or thematically wrong.

All I can say to this, is you have the wrong expectations. Things are supposed to be different between games, otherwise Bethesda would just rerelease Morrowind with prettier graphics every three to four years.

-Oblivion: Oh wait, Oblivion didn't have a thieves guild, a thieves guild is a guild of people who steal stuff to make a profit, what Oblivion had was a Robin Hood society, that was more focuses on helping the poor then being real thieves. Furthermore everything you did was to help the Grey Fox, and not the guild itself. you stole a Elder Scroll only for the GF to use it once, and then basically throw it away. Why not use it to make a profit as a thief would? Nothing about the thieves guild in Oblivion had any thematic connection to any other thieves guild, they were only thieves in name.

First off, you're seriously going to argue they're not thieves? Did you miss the part where they took things that didn't belong to them? To say they didn't turn a profit is false as well. You always profited from the quests. As for actually using the elder scroll....in case you forgot reading it can blind you. And that's one of the minor consequences compared to what it can do to your mind.

-Oblivion:A bunch of white night/paladin wannabes who cared about JUSTICE more then profit, who only attacked an opposing guild because they guild was doing a better job then them and using drugs. Bethesda managed to turn what was supposed to be a questline about a bunch of mercs killing stuff into an anti-drug public service announcement backed by a group of paladin wannabes.

Wrong. The Fighter's Guild attacked the Blackwood company because it murdered one of their own. That's what sparked the conflict.

-Oblivion: A group of mages who, for no reason, banned necromancy, despite necromancy being legal and not that hated for ages

This is just continuity butthurt. Oh, and news flash things tend to change over time. Considering how Necromancy involves desecrating the dead, I hardly see this practice maintaining an absolute place in society over the years like the Restoration arts of magic.

The problem with Oblivion's guilds is the same problem Oblivion had in general, everyone, everything, every faction, was either a super generic goody two shoes/white knight/merry sue good guys, or equally generic "we are necromancers/drug users/oppressors of the poor blah fear us" evil.

I won't argue that Oblivion didn't have many shades of gray. Nor will I argue that the characters weren't generic. What I will say, is there's nothing wrong with using plot cliches if they're done reasonable well. Oblivion did them well, and in such a measured way that all the momentous events (meeting the grayfox, nightmother, confronting manimarco) still had some weight which is more than I can say for the rushed pace of Skyrim.

Oblivion lacked any sort of depth of character, and the guild plots were either thematically wrong in every way with the guild's nature, or simply had no logic behind the reasons that started the questline in the first place.

Lacked any sort of depth of character? Wrong. There's no differing opinion to be had here. You're wrong. Martin Septim had character depth. Baurus had depth. Count Hassildor had depth. I can go on for a while here. As for the so called "themes", honestly I'm glad they're not consistent. Variety is a good thing. I seriously doubt any of us really want to play the exact same guild just in a different province.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Kraeten

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

Things are supposed to be different between games, however, guilds with a theme should retain that theme throughout their iterations, if they don't, they just became guilds in name. If The Enclave from Fallout went from genocidal maniacs, to peace loving hippies, to deranged lunatics who sit in their bases all day, between games, they could hardly be called the same faction. What makes the guilds different between iterations is their quests, and their story arcs, not changing their theme into something that it never was before. It really seems like YOU have the wrong expectations here, and a lack of understanding of consistency.

 

 

Thieves take things to profit for themselves, the Oblivion DB took things to give profit to the poor. Furthermore, I never said you would use the elder scroll in a reading sort of way, "using" an elder scroll could constitute anything, including bribing the Moth Priests/Empire for a LARGE sum of money in order to have it returned. I would ask you not claim I said specific things, such as The thieves guild reading the Elder Scroll, when I did not.

 

 

Again, they attacked because the Blackwood company was doing a better job then them. Merc companies survive by attacking each other, it is how they stay competitive, and should have been common fare for the fighters guild. The Companions in Skyrim at least had the excuse of trying to hide their secret to justify hunting the Silver Hand to such an extreme extent.

 

 

That excuse would be reasonable, if it was actually justifiable. Firstly, one does not just change continuity without giving an explanation as to why it was changed, Bethesda managed to explain how Cyrodiil went from a tropical jungle, into a generic mid-evil landscape, they should have done so for Manimarcoo, not doing so means they created an unexplained plothole, furthermore, by your logic, people getting mad over Bethesda adding in guns and saying "the dwemer made them and they have always been here" would just be "continuity butthurt".

Also, if Necromancy had fallen out of favor with the people it should have been explained, what you did is literally make up an excuse not justified by anything, actions need to be justified or else they are plotholes, the game offers no justification, and thus, necromancy falling out of favor is a plothole.

 

 

Funny, the Battle with Ancanno, meeting Nocturnal, the battle through Ysgramor's Tomb to Free Kodlak's soul, and the murder of The Emperor, far outpace anything the guilds in Oblivion did.

-Ancanno was fought in a somewhat interesting location, the eye of magnus being all glowy and s*** was better then the same cave we had seen 5000 times in Oblivion, and Ancanno had magical damage immunity for part of the battle where as Manimarco literally went down in ONE hit.

-Meeting an actual Deadric prince in person, who had a very badass and unique entrance animation, was far more interesting then meeting a normal guy in a mask, in a normal room.

-Sneaking onto the emperor's ship, slipping past his guards, and killing him was more interesting then killing 4 or 5 really easy black hand members in a Tomb only to be greeting by a generic ghost who tell you "yeah I let them die becuase they were dumb, take the stuff in my tomb and leave"

-Battling through Ysgramor's Tomb, fighting past the souls of the 500 companions, throwing a witches head into a fire and battling a giant wolf spirit to free a dudes souls was more interesting then killing a bunch of mercs that looked like every other merc out there, and then lighting their building, a building that looked like every other building in Leyawin, on fire.

 

 

 

-Martin Spetim had ZERO character depth, he was the epitome of merry sue characters. He is such a merry sue he become god through merry sueness. Its one of the most common jokes of Oblivion that Martin had no character except that he was a Merry sue.

-Who is Barus again?

- Count Hassildor was vampire, who you meet all of three times, and whose personality consists of "get out of my face I have to hide my secret more".

Edited October 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kraeten]

Thieves take things to profit for themselves, the Oblivion DB took things to give profit to the poor.

That was one of their goals. HOWEVER the Cyrodiil thieves guild still had fences to sell stolen items, and the guild still payed you in gold for your efforts. They were STILL thieves. They still STOLE items which didn't belong to them. You don't have an argument.

Again, they attacked because the Blackwood company was doing a better job then them.

I already stated why you were wrong. I shouldn't have to explain why again.

by your logic people getting mad over Bethesda adding in guns and saying "the dwemer made them and they have always been here" would just be "continuity butthurt".

And it would be continuity butt hurt. Franchises evolve, that's all there is to it.

And again, if Necromancy had fallen out of favor with the people it should have been explained, what you did is literally make up an excuse not justified by anything, actions need to be justified or else they are plotholes, the game offers no justification.

I did justify my explanation. Things change over time(needs no further explanation I should hope), and poking around with corpses is obviously disrespectful to the dead. The dead obviously are given the same level of respect we give our own, or else there wouldn't be crypts and burial traditions which DO evidently exist in the Elder Scrolls universe. Therefore even under the best circumstances Necromancy would be a contentious issue.

Case in point, this piece of proof supporting my argument. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Black_Arts_on_Trial

Funny, the Battle with Ancanno, meeting Nocturnal, the battle through Ysgramor's Tomb to Free Kodlak's soul, and the murder of The Emperor, far outpace anything the guilds in Oblivion did.

The battle with Ancanno, was just him standing there throwing spells while draining energy from a glowing ball. Nothing fantastic. Meeting Nocturnal, no more impressive than meeting any other NPC. In fact I was much more impressed meeting Meridia that any other daedra in Skyrim. The battle through Ysgramor's tomb was no different from clearing out any other ghost infested tomb complete with generic ghost dialogue "You cannot defeat the dead blarg!". The murder of the emperor was laughably anti-climactic.

 

Meanwhile, in Oblivion the player had to face an ancient evil not just some Thalmor ambassador. In Oblivion's Fighters Guild the player had to face an enemy that knew no scruples, a sharp contrast from the Fighters Guild. In Oblivion's Thieves Guild we had to carry out the greatest heist possible. In Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood, you're unwittingly used to weaken the guild in an attempt for a certain traitor to kill the Night Mother herself. Again, there are far more characters in Oblivion's quest lines as opposed to Skyrim's, plus better written dialogue.

-Martin Spetim had ZERO character depth, he was the epitome of merry sue characters. He is such a merry sue he become god through merry sueness.

Born as an illegitimate heir, forced by circumstance to claim his father's throne for the sake of saving his homeland from the wrath of a terrible evil. Yes it isn't the most original story. Yes it's a story we've likely all read in a book or seen in a movie dozens of times. That doesn't mean the story is poor, nor the character lacks depth. Martin had a classical character arc.

-Who is baurus again?

The last surviving member of the Blades escorting the Emperor from the City through the catacombs. He blamed himself for the Emperor's death.

- Count Hassildor was vampire, who you meet all of three times, and whose personality consists of "get out of my face I have to hide my secret more".

Clearly you've never cured your character of vampirism in Oblivion, or else you wouldn't have provided such a dumb description.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Kraeten