Should any nation have immigration controls

[mizdarby]

Quoting the head of commons home affairs select committee for the UK

"UKBA caseload 'out of control'

 

The number of outstanding immigration and asylum cases rose by 25,000 in three months and is "spiralling out of control", making the total caseload the equivalent of the population of Iceland, an MP has said.

 

More than 300,000 cases needed to be dealt with at the end of June, up 9% over the previous three months, the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee said. But clearing the backlog should not be a rushed job done without the proper checks, the committee's report on the UK Border Agency (UKBA) warned.

 

In the modern world we live in, immigration between nations is a global phenomenon, mostly from nations either economically 'disadvantaged' or politically unstable, to nations that are perceived as economically prosperous or a safe haven.

 

On the plus side, these migrants, add diversity and new ideas to their new homeland, and frequently take up the low paying jobs that the 'natives' of a nation, are reluctant to take themselves. They indirectly boost the economy through simple spending power, and directly through setting up small businesses and providing employment opportunities.

 

On the minus side, an influx of new population, puts pressure on the jobs market, as more and more people require employment, and they also put pressure on the housing stocks, as again more people require housing. Added to that, are the tensions generated by traditional tribalism, generally in the form of racial tensions.

 

We are all human, so does it matter how many immigrants a nation takes into borders each year, or is this a 'limit' of new population that a nation can absorb, before it's basic infra-structure is overwhelmed.

 

As usual, I will state my standpoint. I have no issues at all with the UK accepting immigrants, I do realise that currently the UK economy is pretty stagnant, and job creation is struggling to say the least, but I consider the UK to be capable of finding new ways to accommodate new population. I would have the one proviso, that immigrants which belong to known terrorist organisations, and those with criminal records of violence/murder/child abuse etc, would not be welcome as they wouldn't contribute positively to UK society.

[JimboUK]

Immigrants put additional strain of public services, they take up scarce social housing, add to the welfare bill and they force wages down by being willing to work for far less. Our obscene level of youth unemployment is largely down to immigration, those crappy jobs we all did as youngsters are now done by immigrants, there's no room left on the bottom rung of the career ladder for many. I have no problem with genuine refugees seeking asylum, I do have a problem with economic immigrants, anyway we're a small island and we just don't have the room. Immigration has hit the poorest hardest, that's why nobody in power much cares about it.

[Tidus44]

Immigration makes a country stronger and improves the economy.

 

Study after study has shown that immigrants help the economy, they demand goods, services, and real estate and thereby stimulate the production of those items, creating employment opportunities. Additionally, immigrant entrepreneurs create employment opportunities directly or through up and down stream exchanges. While immigrants may push down wages for some, the overall effect is to increase average wages.

 

Immigrants do seem to take jobs only because of their mobility factor. Immigrants do not typically settle in a location where there are no jobs. They settle where jobs exist and those that are already in the country are not as mobile and may not be willing to take the risk of moving to take a job. Generally, people in the country look for jobs within relatively easy travel range and limit their own opportunities whereas immigrants do not.

When those in country who are poor and uneducated can subsist on welfare they are not going to dig ditches, clean toilets or wash dishes at minimum wage. However, if there are massive shortages of workers for such jobs, the forces of supply and demand will come in to play and the compensation for those jobs will rise to attract more workers. At some point, it will pay more than being on welfare and be attractive enough to turn off the TV or computer and the labor shortage will be alleviated.

 

While first generation immigrants tend to take lower paying jobs, second generation do not necessarily. In most cases the second and third generations are much better educated than their parents, have better language skills and contribute to society in a positive way. In reality, immigrants either occupy the low or high ends of the labor market. The majority of in country workers fall between these two ends.

 

The idea that immigrants take jobs away is somewhat strange as jobs are not limited to a set amount. Job opportunities are constantly changing, a loss in one area, a gain in another with the creation of new jobs and job opportunities constantly move from place to place.

 

The Center for Global Development estimates that the economic gains from eliminating migration barriers for peaceful and healthy people are vastly greater than any losses to wages or income. The study estimates that removing restrictions on labor mobility would increase global GDP by 50 percent to 150 percent. Their studies show the immigration of a million Eastern Europeans in the last four years has not damaged wages or led to an increase in unemployment among those already in country.

 

As far as controls go, anyone who is healthy and peaceful should be allowed to go where ever they want. The problem is identifying them.

[Syco21]

Personally, I'm completely fine with open borders for the US. Only thing our borders should be used for is keeping foreign government out.

 

As for immigrants working low paying jobs that no one else will work. Well, they ain't got much choice. For illegal immigrants in the US, that's the only places that'll hire them. So already that's a problem. But then you add other issues as well. For example, a person that only speaks Spanish is going to have a hard time finding a job that deals with customers/clients anywhere other than on the border. Someone that speaks only German or French or some other language is simple SoL because they can't even go to a border town to get a job.

 

I don't think it's an issue of immigrants being willing to work for less as much as it's an issue of immigrants only being able to find jobs that pay less. If someone doesn't speak English, they can't very well work as a cashier in white America. But they can be a laborer.

[colourwheel]

I think immigration control is important to any nation. I support the dream act yet illegal immigration can eventually become a big problem if not controlled right.

 

Living in the U.S. We are a nation of immigrants yet if immigration was not controlled in this age you would eventually over time have the population taken over by illegal immigrants taking too many american jobs in all private sectors across the nation. Not just low paying jobs that no one else would work for but eventually jobs in the private sector that most middle income to low income americans rely on while going to school for higher education.

 

The thing is a majority of americans think that most illegal immigrants are just under educated and only can do low paying jobs that no one else wants to do. Which is not the truth. illegal Immigrants are just as intellectual as any american citizen just typically illegal immigrants ussually have higher working moral and tend to work harder than most citizens. Even illegal immigrants who don't speak english tend to learn very fast living in america within a short time period.

 

Without immigration control the U.S.A. would eventually have all private jobs taken over by illegal immigrants hired by corperations being paid slave salaries on multi levels of pay brackets.

 

Without some government immigration control any capitalistic country would eventually fail.

 

This is why it is important for government control for a process for immigrants to be legal in any nation. Eventually it would be great to see America to become diversely balanced in all ethnicities. Then America would be the truely diverse nation in the world.

Edited November 11, 2012 by colourwheel

[Ghogiel]

But allowing all these foreigners in... it'll make white Americans a minority!

 

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md4ddvmX0H1qj171uo1_400.jpg

[Syco21]

I think immigration control is important to any nation. I support the dream act yet illegal immigration can eventually become a big problem if not controlled right.

There can only be illegal immigration if immigration is illegal. There can only be a problem with illegal immigration if there exists illegal immigration.

 

The thing is a majority of americans think that most illegal immigrants are just under educated and only can do low paying jobs that no one else wants to do. Which is not the truth. illegal Immigrants are just as intellectual as any american citizen just typically illegal immigrants ussually have higher working moral and tend to work harder than most citizens.

How dare those dirty rotten immigrants come to America with their evil work ethics and work hard! They need to be lazy little bastards so they wont compete with my lazy, good for nothing child/self! :rolleyes:

 

If the issue is that immigrants are willing to work hard and do their jobs better than the citizens, then that's an issue with the citizenry, not immigrants.

 

Do we not demand our service providers provid us with quality service? I don't know about you, but when I have trouble with my internet/phone/cable/whatever, I call up my provider and *censored* at them. If they are unwilling or on unable to resolve the issue(s), then I switch providers. I've done that two or three times since I moved. I did it about a billion times at my last residence.

 

So why shouldn't my boss expect me to work hard and be on time? If I can't, why shouldn't my boss cut me loose and hire someone that will? Why is it somehow worse if it's an immigrant that takes my former position?

 

This is not to say that I think employers should be able to run roughshod over their employees like Wal-Mart loves to do. I actually rejoiced when I heard that over thirty Wal-Mart stores had gone on strike and I hope and pray that the plans for the labor day strike come to fruition and it's far more successful than they had hoped.

 

If the argument is that illegal immigrants allow their employers to walk all over them. Well, what choice do they have? If they want to work, they have to deal with it because no one else will hire them. If their employer abuses them, then who can they complain to? If they go to the authorities, they're just going to be deported and find themselves worse off. The solution isn't to deport these poor people, that's like throwing a rape victim in prison because they fought their attacker. No, the solution is to make them legal and educate them on employee rights.

 

It's no different than the law congress was attempting to pass where women that were mail order brides could receive asylum if they were in an abusive relationship. The solution isn't to deport those poor women, nor should it be to deport the other immigrants.

[mizdarby]

My father was an immigrant to the UK back in the 70's, and did take up a series of relatively low paying jobs, and on the whole he found the whole experience pretty enjoyable. As a mixed race person, I also have found the experience of life in the UK a pleasurable one, bar the odd idiot with bigotted views. It seems to me at least, that most of the discontentment in the UK, particularly in relationship to a struggling jobs market, seems aimed largely at the influx of Eastern Europeans from new member states of the EU. The commonly expressed viewpoint seems to be, that these migrant workers, will work for less than the legal minimum wage, and so prevent 'indigenous' people from acquiring long term work. To be fair, my upstairs neighbours are from Latvia, and the main wage earner does indeed work for much less than the legal minimum wage, which kind of reinforces the truth behind the perceptions.

Be that as it may, the real issue would lay with the employers ( and probably the Government) for being prepared to pay such low incomes, and not with the migrants prepared to accept those wages. My Latvian neighbours are a fun lot of people, and we have had some good times sharing meals and just enjoying our different heritages.

In a way, free immigration is a valuable step towards a true one-world humanity, and if we can't make that first step, then I suppose we will never be a full global society.

[ginnyfizz]

I must say that when I worked in welfare to work with the long term unemployed, first I did not have a single immigrant/minority ethnic person on my caseloads, and second, it was a favourite whinge of my customers that "The Poles/Latvians/Lithuanians are taking all the jobs..." To which my response would inevitably be "Oh, so you acknowledge that there ARE some jobs out there then?" I am talking more about the unskilled types of jobs and customers with low/no skills and qualifications here, and since the slave labour gangmasters have been well and truly cracked down on, jobs that were paying above minimum wage. The immigrants were getting the jobs because they had a work ethic.

 

Where it does get absurd is the fact that we have a shortage of dentists on the NHS due to British dentists taking offence at the NHS payment system which meant that instead of earning extremely huge amounts of money they would merely be earning huge amounts of money. So off they huffed to private practice, and we had to import dentists from Poland. My dentist is Polish and she is absolutely great.

 

Another absurdity of the UK immigration and asylum policy is that we end up accepting seditious and religious/race hatred stirring terrorist pieces of rubbish like Abu Qatada and Abu Hamza, who we only just managed to send to the USA for trial. Enough said.

[colourwheel]

@Syco21

 

I guess the point i was trying to make is any major capitalstic country that has a better economy than the next would have a huge surge of immigrants over populating the work feild and over populating the nation. As ideal as a country could be to have a balanced mixture of ethnic diversity, it would be any countries undoing to have no actual immigration control.

Edited November 12, 2012 by colourwheel