AUSTRALIA, Should we have a National ID Card system?

[Maharg67]

Thank you all posters for you strong, useful, thought provoking responses. I have read through them more than once. I have both pros and cons below.

 

My response is that a National ID Card system would only be good, or useful, if it did not try to accomplish too and if it was only tied to a specifically limited set of databases and only a few could access them. These ID Cards would not replace all other forms of identification but supplement them, strengthen them. The problem with driver's licenses is what if you do not drive a car or wish to do so or have the money to afford to get one?

 

In Australia, before the ID Card idea was thrown out, the Federal Government promised that only a very limited number of government organizations would gain limited access to ID Card databases. Then it was leaked, by public servants, that the same government had a much bigger secret list of government organizations that would actually be able to access those same databases in a much less limited way. It was that, alone, which turned many Australians against the idea of National ID cards.

 

So it comes down to this: the National ID Card system would only be as efficient, as secure, as trustworthy as the government that is behind it. How much do you trust, respect, your government?

 

Only one 'good' reason comes to my mind to support such a system and that is that much of our existing ID system has already got the same problems that a more centralized system would have. Perhaps putting more of the problems in one basket might make them easier to focus on, to organize, to keep an eyes on or is that just blind optimism?

 

What ever you think the question will not go away simply because the increasing sophistication of hitech systems will make the idea more appealing to various governments if not so much to their citizens.

 

Please continue contributing; the debate has been of excellent quality so far.

[ColdHeartonIce]

The Nazis created the first obligatory identification laws in germany and they still have them.

 

If once such a tyrannical act is passed, it would never get away. Doesn't matter who runs the government, all of them love such ways to rule.

 

Australia will be swallowed in maybee 20 Years by the chinese. So be carefull what kind of infrastructure you create for them.

[Syco21]

Vagrant stated that his IDs haven't caused him any grief, he's lucky! Hundreds of thousands of other people, not so much.

 

What kinds of problems can arise from errors in government databases?

 

• Being arrested for car theft after buying a new car.
• Being issued someone else's tickets.
• Being arrested for a suspended license that isn't suspended.
• Being charged for some else's toll violation.
• Duplicated ID numbers in the same system.
• Reporter monitored for public objection to traffic cams.
• Infants on No Fly List due to suspected terrorism.

 

 

These are just a few examples, there are many, many more.

You forgot to mention the people who are claiming government assistance under multiple names, people who falsify documents to gain employment, or any number of other illegal activities to exploit the system.

 

Just because there are problems, does not mean they are particularly common, or any more frequent than any other sort of bureaucratic cockup. But that's a problem with the agencies who run such a system, not the nature of the system or the reasons why it exists. In a bag of microwave popcorn, there will always be a handful of kernels which don't pop; does that mean that you should denounce popcorn completely, or just accept that about 0.4% of the bag will not meet your expectations and enjoy the rest?

 

For the most part, the majority of the problems only happen at the beginning of implementation since there are very few who actually know what to do about it all, or when there is some substantial change in how this information is used (see Patriot Act). But, as the world continues to move toward an importance of credit and credentials, almost every country will need to establish some way of recording their population at the individual level. Personally I would prefer to carry a card around with me that I need to renew and take a bad picture for, than have a microchip or barcode on my body, or have to submit myself to frequent retinal scans so that I can do anything within society.

1. Your analogy fails because if a kernal or ten fail to pop, no one is harmed by it. When f*** ups happen with an ID system, people get royally screwed.

 

2. Your argument relies on the nation that can only choose between an ID card or some other form of identification. That is not our only options. We still have the option of rejecting these tracking systems and we damn well should.

[Vagrant0]

1. Your analogy fails because if a kernal or ten fail to pop, no one is harmed by it. When f*** ups happen with an ID system, people get royally screwed.

I argue that. Not only does chewing on an unpopped kernel hurt, but it can also potentially damage your teeth requiring months of pain and dental bills.

 

But it doesn't matter what analogy is used... There is no such thing as a perfect system, anywhere, and a 0.1% (or 1 person being affected out of every 1000) is still very insignificant for most things unless you are that person. As far as identity problems go, once the initial framework is put in place, the rate of incidence is still rare. A systemic problem as you suggest would need to involve a much more substantial part of the population to even be remotely systemic. The problems which do exist are primarily there just because of human error... And statistically you're risking more just climbing into an automobile, I guess we should ban personal transportation too.

 

2. Your argument relies on the nation that can only choose between an ID card or some other form of identification. That is not our only options. We still have the option of rejecting these tracking systems and we damn well should.

I KNOW you're one of those types that opposes any and all government or social controls, so arguing the necessity of an ID might be totally lost on you. The reality however is that when dealing with any reasonably large population, you need to establish some way of identifying specific parts of that population due to the needs and aspects of that population. I don't care if you're talking about a company, a school, or a country; you need to have some way to differentiate one individual from another. This is the reason why we have names, in particular surnames. But as we no longer live in a society that only numbers a few hundred contacts throughout our lives, there needs to be some sort of standardized means of identifying a person so that an individual can't just travel to a new community and start over again with a clean slate no matter what wrongs were done, or immediately start claiming benefits within that community as if they were always there.

 

To put it another way, the same exact reason why even a website might require a registration for a user, is the same reason why a government does. It allows tracking of actions, handling of costs/benefits, and encourages accountability.

[JimboUK]

1. Your analogy fails because if a kernal or ten fail to pop, no one is harmed by it. When f*** ups happen with an ID system, people get royally screwed.

I argue that. Not only does chewing on an unpopped kernel hurt, but it can also potentially damage your teeth requiring months of pain and dental bills.

 

But it doesn't matter what analogy is used... There is no such thing as a perfect system, anywhere, and a 0.1% (or 1 person being affected out of every 1000) is still very insignificant for most things unless you are that person. As far as identity problems go, once the initial framework is put in place, the rate of incidence is still rare. A systemic problem as you suggest would need to involve a much more substantial part of the population to even be remotely systemic. The problems which do exist are primarily there just because of human error... And statistically you're risking more just climbing into an automobile, I guess we should ban personal transportation too.

 

2. Your argument relies on the nation that can only choose between an ID card or some other form of identification. That is not our only options. We still have the option of rejecting these tracking systems and we damn well should.

I KNOW you're one of those types that opposes any and all government or social controls, so arguing the necessity of an ID might be totally lost on you. The reality however is that when dealing with any reasonably large population, you need to establish some way of identifying specific parts of that population due to the needs and aspects of that population. I don't care if you're talking about a company, a school, or a country; you need to have some way to differentiate one individual from another. This is the reason why we have names, in particular surnames. But as we no longer live in a society that only numbers a few hundred contacts throughout our lives, there needs to be some sort of standardized means of identifying a person so that an individual can't just travel to a new community and start over again with a clean slate no matter what wrongs were done, or immediately start claiming benefits within that community as if they were always there.

 

To put it another way, the same exact reason why even a website might require a registration for a user, is the same reason why a government does. It allows tracking of actions, handling of costs/benefits, and encourages accountability.

 

There is no necessity for it, your country and mine function just fine without it, yes there are those that abuse it but that is the price of living in a free country. It can't be compared to registering to use a website, you can opt out of registering by not using the site, you can't opt out of existing within society. As for encouraging accountability, accountability to who? the state? the state should be accountable to the people, not the people to the state.

[Vagrant0]

There is no necessity for it, your country and mine function just fine without it, yes there are those that abuse it but that is the price of living in a free country. It can't be compared to registering to use a website, you can opt out of registering by not using the site, you can't opt out of existing within society. As for encouraging accountability, accountability to who? the state? the state should be accountable to the people, not the people to the state.

You can opt out of your identity, it's not suggested, can be damn distasteful at times, and you won't necessarily get very far, but there are certainly enough cracks to slip through in almost every society. Just like you can usually just lurk on an online site or use a throw-away account, or "borrow" someone else's for those periods of time when you have little other option. But you generally get many more advantages just by going with the system and following the majority of that society's rules.

 

Accountability to who? To other members of that society really, or even accountability to yourself. This is why websites are a good analog regarding identity. Sure, there may be rules, there may even be oppressive site staff that ban at a moments notice and quickly kill any discussion that they don't agree with. There may even be an occasional mix-up regarding who is who, banning wrong accounts, mixing up stories, or some extra penalty being handed to someone only because that person insists on refusing to cooperate with even reasonable requests. But you see a lot of that same stuff in real life. Regardless, the majority of your daily actions are not for the benefit of the government, civic duty, or even winning the favor of those in charge; it is to be a member of that community, to enjoy the rights and privileges that go with that membership, and to work towards making that community function better. With animosity, most of this quickly unravels as the population grows since people can much more easily cause trouble, abuse what systems exist, and be disruptive to the prosperity of that society.

 

We may not like the idea of some overseeing body having our name written in their system, but very few people are open to the idea of people from foreign places taking their jobs without even making an effort to learn the language or contribute to the society that already exists.

[Syco21]

Here's one for you: I'm now a nomad. I can not get an ID or any license because I do not have a permanent physical address. I can't use a family member's address either, because none live in this state.

 

I'm now caught between the cracks and through no choice of my name.

 

Do not confuse nomad with homeless. I simply live out of hotels for work. I'm not the only person in this situation. My best friends is right here with me. There are countless others as well.

[Vagrant0]

Here's one for you: I'm now a nomad. I can not get an ID or any license because I do not have a permanent physical address. I can't use a family member's address either, because none live in this state.

 

I'm now caught between the cracks and through no choice of my name.

 

Do not confuse nomad with homeless. I simply live out of hotels for work. I'm not the only person in this situation. My best friends is right here with me. There are countless others as well.

Again, just because you are screwed by one aspect of that system does not mean that the system is bad, or that the reasons for such a system are invalid.

 

I don't pretend to know your personal situation, but even in those cases there are still ways to get an ID as long as you have a Passport, Social Security number, Birth Certificate, or similar and as long as you have a PO box or some trusted stationary friend/family member to act as a point to collect mail for you. If you are employed by a company, they usually have some systems in place to allow their nomadic employees the ability to stay current on IDs and Licenses.

[Syco21]

Well I am in this situation and if you know of a way to stay current on my licenses, do please tell.

 

You can not use a P.O. box to establish residency. You have to establish residency to register your vehicle and apply for a driver's license. I can not maintain a Texas resident CHL without permanent residence in Texas,I can not switch to a nonresident license without a permanent residence. I can not buy a gun in Louisiana with a Texas ID. Except long guns.

 

These are just a few issues I am faced with.

 

And this isn't just an issue for me and my friend. There are thousands like us. And yes, our being screwed by the system is evidence that the system is bad.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Syco21

[Vagrant0]

Well I am in this situation and if you know of a way to stay current on my licenses, do please tell.

 

You can not use a P.O. box to establish residency. You have to establish residency to register your vehicle and apply for a driver's license. I can not maintain a Texas resident CHL without permanent residence in Texas,I can not switch to a nonresident license without a permanent residence. I can not buy a gun in Louisiana with a Texas ID. Except long guns.

 

These are just a few issues I am faced with.

 

And this isn't just an issue for me and my friend. There are thousands like us. And yes, our being screwed by the system is evidence that the system is bad.

If you're planning to be within one area for a few months, you could always rent an apartment or find someone to rent to you as long as you're clean and on the level. It might be more expensive than living out of motels, and may mean longer travel times for awhile, but you can probably find atleast one renter who will not ask any questions or pay attention to how much time you actually spend there, so long as you have your rent paid. It may not be the most legal way though.

 

Really, you should be asking these sorts of questions to your state licensing board.

 

 

Again... Just because the system is bad, has problems, or screws over thousands in one way or another, does not mean that it is fundamentally broken on all levels. Your situation is not typical to most. About the only thing you are proving here is that the system needs to have procedures in place to accommodate less typical cases.

 

As for being unable to purchase a handgun... That is really more a matter of the US's screwed up gun laws, and you only have both sides to blame.