Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[RighthandofSithis]

Revolutionary sentiments are not the result of one man. Revolution is the result of a class becoming conscious, through a revolutionary situation. The WGC, the loss of the Great War, the corruption of the Empire, and its inevitable economic issues. These are the signs of a revolutionary situation, and the Nordic Aristocracy have come to realise that they should not be so subservient to the EMpire any longer. Ulfric is simply a symbol, and in some respect may be considered the vanguard of the revolution.

 

And we can get an idea of the situation in Cyrodiil. Reading Cicero's journals makes you understand why he said "The Imperial province is ravaged by strife, nowhere is safe, at present".

As I pointed out in my reply to imperistan, Ulfric has been preaching rebellion for a while and he was the central figure in the only major Talos worship incident mentioned in Skyrim. Furthermore there's evidence that Ulfric was in communications with the Thalmor and "proving his worth as an asset" up until after the Markarth Incident. So the central figure in being persecuted for the Markarth Incident, who capitalizes on it as his justification to start a rebellion, and uses the rhetoric he has been espousing along with the "evidence" of his arrest by the Imperials to murder the High King instead of calling for a new moot, also happened to be a Thalmor asset. Ulfric isn't listed as a dormant asset until after he becomes difficult to communicate with, so it's not incidentally acting in the interests of the Thalmor that makes a person "active" or "dormant" (Ulfric would still be listed as an active asset otherwise, since the Thalmor approve of the civil war); therefore during the events of the Markarth Incident he was at the very least an informant and at worst an agent.

 

Ulfric's arrest was essentially a manufactured event that gave the Thalmor the excuse to send Inquisitors up to Skyrim and force the Empire to arrest Nord citizens under the WGC, and as Alvor and Igmund will tell you that was what allowed Ulfric to really bring his rebellion into full swing. He helped (I would argue solely responsible rather than helped, since I don't see any lore about other figures being as loud as he was about it, but giving him the slight benefit of a doubt) seed the belief that the Empire was weak despite having (false) information that he played a role in the Empire's defeat (nothing suggests he learned the truth), he helped bring about the religious persecution by facilitating a breach of the WGC while in direct communications with the Thalmor, and he forced a civil war in Skyrim by choosing to murder his king instead of asking for him to declare independence (regardless of what cultural norms there are surrounding ritual duels in Skyrim, don't forget that Ulfric was trained by the Greycloaks, so he's not some frothy berserker and should be aware of diplomatic solutions), so it would be wrong for me to say he was wholly responsible for the current state of the civil war (since he used the Thalmor and vice versa), but he had the opportunities and information to bring it in a different direction, but didn't.

 

Ah, thanks for reminding me about Cicero. I only had one character run across him outside the farm, so I didn't recall that particular statement about the provinces. I still don't think that's enough to support Ulfric, though, given my interpretation of his character and motivations.

 

 

Its been about 20-25 years or so. A strong leader can turn even the most bakward nation into an industrial powerhouse, as we've seen a few times in Modern History (real life). It took Stalin 5 years to turn the USSR from an argrarian peasant society into an Industrial giant. Hitler did the same, bringing Germany back from the Treaty Of Versailles and forging the Third Reich.

To be fair, neither of them were trying to build on top of a desert and both had the benefit of advancing technology. Limitations of arable land, a nomadic culture, and interruption in trade can all limit the speed in which you rebuild your population and what portion of them are viable as soldiers.

 

 

The Markarth Incident is but one example of rising consciousness amongst the Nordic Aristocracy. Revolution (specifically, Class War) is never the result of people, only conflict between classes (in this case, the Imperial Aristocracy and the Nordic Aristocracy). The Stormcloaks may be the Vanguard of the Revolution, with Ulfric as the Leader, but they are not responsible for the Revolution. The decaying state of the Empire, and the Revolutionary Situation that gave rise to, are responsible.

 

Also, simply because Ulfric now serves the interests of the Thalmor, by causing more disruption within the Empire, does that mean a Stormcloak victory will do so? Remember how the US supported Ho Chi Minh, Suddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and Colonel Gaddafi? Remember how much trouble they caused for the US (and remember the Thalmor don't have access to aircraft carriers and Abrams Tanks, they'd actually be on a relatively equal playing field with the Stormcloaks).

 

And remember, Russia is a rather inhospitalble place at times. Siberia, for example, is a wasteland, yet Stalin still developed industry there. Regardless, Hammerfell has a number of cities already established to rebuild from.

 

 

Also, an observation about the Class situation of the forsworn (probably irrelevant to this discussion). The Reachmen in Markarth seem to make up the only significant proletariat in Skyrim (perhaps Riften also harbors a significant proletariat, but they seem less significant than an entire race of people). I feel,though, that the Forsworn Rebellion, like the Stormcloaks, is a class war between two different Aristocratic classes, and both are obviously National Liberationist movements.

 

Thoughts?

Edited December 6, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[AnimeOtaku102]

The Markarth Incident is but one example of rising consciousness amongst the Nordic Aristocracy. Revolution (specifically, Class War) is never the result of people, only conflict between classes (in this case, the Imperial Aristocracy and the Nordic Aristocracy). The Stormcloaks may be the Vanguard of the Revolution, with Ulfric as the Leader, but they are not responsible for the Revolution. The decaying state of the Empire, and the Revolutionary Situation that gave rise to, are responsible.

 

Also, simply because Ulfric now serves the interests of the Thalmor, by causing more disruption within the Empire, does that mean a Stormcloak victory will do so? Remember how the US supported Ho Chi Minh, Suddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and Colonel Gaddafi? Remember how much trouble they caused for the US (and remember the Thalmor don't have access to aircraft carriers and Abrams Tanks, they'd actually be on a relatively equal playing field with the Stormcloaks).

 

And remember, Russia is a rather inhospitalble place at times. Siberia, for example, is a wasteland, yet Stalin still developed industry there. Regardless, Hammerfell has a number of cities already established to rebuild from.

 

 

Also, an observation about the Class situation of the forsworn (probably irrelevant to this discussion). The Reachmen in Markarth seem to make up the only significant proletariat in Skyrim (perhaps Riften also harbors a significant proletariat, but they seem less significant than an entire race of people). I feel,though, that the Forsworn Rebellion, like the Stormcloaks, is a class war between two different Aristocratic classes, and both are obviously National Liberationist movements.

 

Thoughts?

Fair enough, there are a number of Jarls and Jarl replacements who state their reasons for throwing their lot in with Ulfric and not all of them state the same reasons as Ulfric, I honestly don't know if any of them would be quite as successful as Ulfric without events like the Markarth Incident to really polarize the population, but it's not unreasonable to argue the Thalmor would have simply manufactured another event (though that's purely speculative and doesn't really change Ulfric's role in things).

 

Hm, thanks for asking this, actually, as it made me reconsider my earlier arguments. According to the Thalmor dossier a Stormcloak victory is not desired, but neither is an Imperial one, so it's likely that Skyrim is the only significant military threat to the Thalmor at the moment, hence the Thalmor interest in prolonging the civil war. Regardless of which side we choose to support it would be bad for the Thalmor, so it ultimately boils down to which side we personally feel is more just than any theoretical military or economic advantage or disadvantages that may arise. If i just had to go with who I liked, I'll flirt a bit with hypocrisy (referring to my earlier statement of "failure of one man thirty years ago is not an argument for the competency of another") and go with Tullius because 1) I don't trust Ulfric for the aforementioned reasons, 2) almost all of the Jarls and Jarl replacers (with the exception of Laila Law-Giver, who is actually a decent ruler, and Siddgeir, who is just a loveable old paranoid coot) who support Ulfric are difficult to like (to put it lightly), and 3) the complete lack of information on Tullius makes it impossible to judge him on the same level as Ulfric. Don't even need to support Mede to support Tullius, what with the DB quest line.

 

Fair point about Siberia, but I'd argue I covered myself with the caveat of advancing technology :) The ability to quickly deliver supplies to regions that are otherwise uninhabitable is an advantage that Redguards wouldn't have, and it's unlikely their agricultural technology is much more advanced than the rest of Tamriel, so settlements and population size would be limited to access to what the major cities can produce while the rest would rely on traditional nomadic lifestyles.

 

And I agree about the similarities of the Forsworn and Stormcloak, both are fighting for religious freedom and the right of self determination, and both are being oppressed by a separate group of different faith, which is why I could never bring myself to help the Forsworn in Cidna mine escape while fighting the Stormcloak, even if they were driven to such circumstances by Ulfric. I do gleefully stab Thonar in the back after he gives me his ring though.

[CasperTheLich]

Many people have stated in game that there wouldn't have been a rebellion at all without Ulfric or the Markarth incident (don’t know how accurate their thoughts are, but there it is anyway), now not being a master of social/political science or of applied history i feel unable to add my opinion on the matter. Though i don't recall hearing about any major incidents involving flame fanning other than the event mentioned earlier in my post. If Ulfric or the MI weren't the sole cause of the stormcloak rebellion i don't see any parallel action that would lead to the same event, ie a rebellion, even one that wasn’t all out open war. Resentment and harsh feelings usually aren’t enough to spark a rebellion without a major catalyst, at least from what I think I know. If resentment and whatnot had reached critical mass by itself there would have been a flash-fire of small incidents popping up and we don’t know if that was the case or at least I haven’t heard anything about it. and I’d think that would be worth reporting in the lore if that was the case, however I’m not sure about anything I’ve just said.

I also can’t say if ulfric was right using his voice to duel the high king. From my point of view the thu’um doesn’t count as an acceptable weapon in a duel of arms. If the terms of a duel were broken by the victor the duel is forfeit and the death classified as a murder (I might be wrong but I think I’m right on that case, in TES lore at any point). Though I can’t say what the terms of the duel actually were. Nor do I care to guess

I’ve played on both sides of the civil war, stormcloak and imperial. My very first character went stormcloak because she had already been wronged by the legion and the imperial sponsored neck shaving was the last straw. (I rp heavily)

Now, from what I’ve seen and heard of Ulfric, even from my first playthrough… I can’t seem to ditch the idea that the only thing ulfric truly cares about is ulfric stormcloak. From my perspective Ulfric seems to think the only thing the war is about is his chance to be high king, nothing more. And I can’t help but wonder if the thalmor offered him the emperor’s throne if he helped the dominion destabilize & conquer the empire. In which case he’d rule the empire for them, at their behest (assuming they don’t intend to murder him right after a dominion victory). This is all just speculation and my personal gut feelings towards Ulfric from those I’ve interacted with in game, or lorebooks I’ve read. Interactions I’ve even had with Ulfric himself, but of course he never actually came out and said anything this is just the feeling I got off him.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Fair point about Siberia, but I'd argue I covered myself with the caveat of advancing technology :) The ability to quickly deliver supplies to regions that are otherwise uninhabitable is an advantage that Redguards wouldn't have, and it's unlikely their agricultural technology is much more advanced than the rest of Tamriel, so settlements and population size would be limited to access to what the major cities can produce while the rest would rely on traditional nomadic lifestyles.

 

 

Well firstly, I'd like to make clear that I'm not suggesting that hammerfell is creating more advanced technologies. In fact, considering the TES universe, i doubt that's happening. my point was that they could have easily rebuilt by now.

 

On the issue of their agriculture, I'd have to say that the arid lands may have considerable potential. Deserts have some of the most nutrient rich soil in the world, the only issues is the lack of water. I'm not saying the Alik'r can be turned into an agricultural paradise, but the coastal cities (Sentinel, Taneth etc) could utilise extensive irrigation channels to create decent farmland.

 

On the point of transportation and communications etc, remember the Redguards have lived in Hammerfell for thousands of years (and before that, lived in an even more inhospitable land). Perhaps my whole argument about rebuilding is pointless, as the Redguards, by tradition, are a military machine.

[RighthandofSithis]

Many people have stated in game that there wouldn't have been a rebellion at all without Ulfric or the Markarth incident (don’t know how accurate their thoughts are, but there it is anyway), now not being a master of social/political science or of applied history i feel unable to add my opinion on the matter. Though i don't recall hearing about any major incidents involving flame fanning other than the event mentioned earlier in my post. If Ulfric or the MI weren't the sole cause of the stormcloak rebellion i don't see any parallel action that would lead to the same event, ie a rebellion, even one that wasn’t all out open war. Resentment and harsh feelings usually aren’t enough to spark a rebellion without a major catalyst, at least from what I think I know. If resentment and whatnot had reached critical mass by itself there would have been a flash-fire of small incidents popping up and we don’t know if that was the case or at least I haven’t heard anything about it. and I’d think that would be worth reporting in the lore if that was the case, however I’m not sure about anything I’ve just said.

 

 

I suppose I may have been a bit biased in my response.

 

While a revolution is not the result of one man or one event, it does require organisation.

 

The Great War, followed by the WGC, followed by the Markarth Incident, followed by the Thalmor Inquisition, and the degeneration of the Empire. This string of event, over a period of 30 years, with no sign of getting better, have all created the Revolutionary situation in Skyrim.

 

It was here that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks organised the revolutionary feelings in Skyrim, and began the revolution in earnest.

 

 

This is still not to say that Ulfric was the cause of the revolution or that without him, it wouldn't have happened. these sentiments would have grown until, eventually, they erupted (Unless of course the Empire recovered, and considering the strife in Cyrodiil, I doubt that would have happened).

[CasperTheLich]

I feel I should clarify a few points.

 

The thalmor document recovered from the embassy states a stormcloak victory is not a desired outcome. They don’t say why, it may be as simple a matter as it seems or it may be more complex.

 

For instance, unless I’m fairly mistaken the bulk of the imperial army is already fully committed elsewhere; perhaps the dominion borders. If skyrim falls to the rebellion the empire would be forced to take it using to full force of the imperial army. In which case the rebellion is over and skyrim is back in imperial hands. This is just a guess, as I have no idea about the current strength or knowledge about how the imperial legion is currently deployed.

 

Now someone stated that general tullius said the imperial legion was overstretched. Did he actually mean the entire imperial legion or the individual legion under his command?

 

---edit

you may have noticed that i stopped posting for a bit. the thread was starting to fall out of my zone of knowledge, and i try not to post when i'm unsure of the content i'm posting.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Invisible Man

[AnimeOtaku102]

Well firstly, I'd like to make clear that I'm not suggesting that hammerfell is creating more advanced technologies. In fact, considering the TES universe, i doubt that's happening. my point was that they could have easily rebuilt by now.

 

On the issue of their agriculture, I'd have to say that the arid lands may have considerable potential. Deserts have some of the most nutrient rich soil in the world, the only issues is the lack of water. I'm not saying the Alik'r can be turned into an agricultural paradise, but the coastal cities (Sentinel, Taneth etc) could utilise extensive irrigation channels to create decent farmland.

Whoops, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that's what I thought you were suggesting.

 

I'm not well-versed in agriculture or soil composition, so I didn't know that about deserts. I did think of the Nile, but assumed that supported agriculture because of the silt it brought up rather than the arable nature of the surrounding soil and quickly dismissed it because lore on Hammerfell doesn't suggest the existence of a similar river. It is plausible they can expand farms in the coastal region, but given the time frame of 20~25 years everyone who was born during (and slightly before) the post-war production levels would be at child-bearing age now (assuming we aren't going full Dark Ages here and lowering that bar to 13 years of age, but that's unlikely since people like Ulfric are still considered to be in their "prime" at around 50), with the oldest of the new generation to enjoy increased food production at roughly seven years.

 

But I'll admit those are only really rough guesses that don't fully take into account children born a decade before the war and who would be in their 30s and theoretically fit for service now, but I'm also assuming they would be similarly limited by post-war food production (and imports) that limited infant mortality in the same time period.

 

Edit: I should clarify that I'm just saying increased farmlands will only yield results after an additional generation has passed to take advantage of increased production, but the 20~25 year time period is certainly enough for Hammerfell to return to slightly below pre-war population levels and military strength.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Anime_Otaku102

[Lachdonin]

Deserts are actually extremely nutrient spase, because of the lack of nitrate material characteristic of plant and animal die off. They do have a penchant localised areas of high fertility, usually do to sources of water (consistant rivers and the occational Oasis) though in many cases this can be attribute to a desert expansion rather than the reverse. IE, graslands dry out, leaving fertile areas around water sources and sand everywhere else. Deserts are also notoriously prone to errosion, because of the lack of fibrious material to hold the soil together (usually dead plants and living plant roots). It is possible to reclaim deserts, though its difficult, which is why in arid locations agriculture is typically found on river floodplanes, such as those found in the fertile cresant and the Nile.

 

Considring the geography of Hammerfell (and what we know of northren Hammerfell from Daggerfall) there is not an abundance of rive systems which have sufficient volume to form reliable flood plains. They were most populous in the southren part of the province (which is now devistated) and the maps we have do indicate at least one river system there which may be able to handle alluvial agriculture.

 

Another thing to consider, of course, is land being rendered fallow because of warfare. Again, just throwing a lot of blood and guts on a field won't make it grow better, and even if the farms could be rebuilt, southren Hammerfell is looking at decades before their farmland gets back up to snuff..

 

Unless their using dyked salt-marshes... but thats another issue altogether.

[RighthandofSithis]

I feel I should clarify a few points.

 

The thalmor document recovered from the embassy states a stormcloak victory is not a desired outcome. They don’t say why, it may be as simple a matter as it seems or it may be more complex.

 

For instance, unless I’m fairly mistaken the bulk of the imperial army is already fully committed elsewhere; perhaps the dominion borders. If skyrim falls to the rebellion the empire would be forced to take it using to full force of the imperial army. In which case the rebellion is over and skyrim is back in imperial hands. This is just a guess, as I have no idea about the current strength or knowledge about how the imperial legion is currently deployed.

 

Now someone stated that general tullius said the imperial legion was overstretched. Did he actually mean the entire imperial legion or the individual legion under his command?

 

---edit

you may have noticed that i stopped posting for a bit. the thread was starting to fall out of my zone of knowledge, and i try not to post when i'm unsure of the content i'm posting.

 

 

I did say the Legion is overstreched, based on comments by General Tullius during the quest to broker a ceasefire.

 

If the right dialogue options are selected, he will state that he has been refused reinforcements as the bulk of the Legion is stationed on the borders with the Dominion.

 

Now, we have no idea about the current strength of the Legion. It has most likely recovered somewhat following Red Ring, but if my judgements and assumptions based on the Empire's actions over the past 30 years, it has likely suffered as a result of lacking funds.

 

Regardless of the Legions position, bringing Skyrim to face the full might of the Legion would pose serious problems. It would leave the borders with the dominion unguarded, and depending on how much of the Dominion's overall force was destroyed during the war, that may leave Cyrodiil prone to attack. Also, the lack of the Legion may cause the violence in Cyrodiil to escalate further.

 

But that said, there are only two courses of action open to the Empire if Ulfric wins. Diplomacy or war. While diplomacy may sound out of the question, Tiber Septim managed to negotiate terms with Rebels in Hammerfell. If Mede's di[plomats are this good, it may be that Skyrim can again become part of the Empire, on its terms. But this is a very optimistic approach.

 

War poses serious problems. While the Legion could very well out man the Stormcloaks (particularly following a civil war), we have to keep in mind that now they have no foothold in Skyrim, meaning they first have to get through Pale Pass and other mountain passes. Much easier said than done, as Hannibal shows us during the Second Punic War (where he lost 80000 troops, if the accounts of the ancient roman authors are to be believed). If the Nords form a Phalanx formation, or another strong Shield Wall, they could either repel the Empire there, or at the very least make it a nightmare to even enter Skyrim. And even then they'd have to face a hostile environment fulled with guerrilla resistance fighters. the whole situation is a strategic nightmare.

[RighthandofSithis]

Deserts are actually extremely nutrient spase, because of the lack of nitrate material characteristic of plant and animal die off. They do have a penchant localised areas of high fertility, usually do to sources of water (consistant rivers and the occational Oasis) though in many cases this can be attribute to a desert expansion rather than the reverse. IE, graslands dry out, leaving fertile areas around water sources and sand everywhere else. Deserts are also notoriously prone to errosion, because of the lack of fibrious material to hold the soil together (usually dead plants and living plant roots). It is possible to reclaim deserts, though its difficult, which is why in arid locations agriculture is typically found on river floodplanes, such as those found in the fertile cresant and the Nile.

 

Considring the geography of Hammerfell (and what we know of northren Hammerfell from Daggerfall) there is not an abundance of rive systems which have sufficient volume to form reliable flood plains. They were most populous in the southren part of the province (which is now devistated) and the maps we have do indicate at least one river system there which may be able to handle alluvial agriculture.

 

Another thing to consider, of course, is land being rendered fallow because of warfare. Again, just throwing a lot of blood and guts on a field won't make it grow better, and even if the farms could be rebuilt, southren Hammerfell is looking at decades before their farmland gets back up to snuff..

 

Unless their using dyked salt-marshes... but thats another issue altogether.

 

Whoops, I was wrong about deserts. I was just going off conversations I had with my science teacher about plans to permanently fill Lake Eyre (an Australian lake in the middle of the desert that fills once every 100 years or something.)

 

Nonetheless, I can still imagine that Hammerfell could build a form of irrigation system out of the Illiac Bay etc. But that would take considerable time.

 

But of course, my argument was that Hammerfell, after 20 years could have rebuilt itself.

Edited December 6, 2012 by RighthandofSithis