Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[RighthandofSithis]

Again, if Cyrodiil is as bad as you say, why would they have to travel by coast at all? The more troops the empire sends to Skyrim the easier it will be to take. If they are successful in taking the central province than it's only a matter of time till they have enough resources to utterly crush Skyrim and Hammerfell. As for Morrowind not being friendly with the Aldmeri, they may not be pals, but that doesn't mean they'de side with Skyrim in a conflict, not when the Nords seem to despise them and if the are successful in succeeding from the Empire than they'll have a fascist king. While I agree that Morrowind is not part of the Empire or Thalmor, since the destruction of Red Mountain and the removal of it's heart it has ceased to act as a pillar of reality, so the Thalmor's main interest with the country is the potential military backing and ensuring Talos cultists are unable to evade them by fleeing their. With that in mind I think the Thalmor are working their agents into power in that country like they have in all the others. They aim to unravel reality and cast it back into the spirit world, and this goal can only be achieved if they are able to succeed in getting rid of Talos. Heck, maybe the graybeards are Thalmor empathizers, they do after all tell you to let the world be destroyed by Alduin.

 

Well, I'm only outlining the naval situation because it seems to be a strong argument for the average imperial supporter.

 

Also, the Dunmer seem very. very uninterested in the Thalmor, why do you think Malborn fled there? Even so, they've still not recovered from the Red Year. My bet is that the best they could do is occasionally raid the border.

 

"The more troops the Empire send to Skyrim, the easier it will be to take". Are you talking about the Empire, or the Thalmor? That just seems out of place.

 

However, warfare is more than numbers. in fact, numbers can be a severe weakness. If a general becomes complacent in the fact that he outnumbers the enemy 10 to 1, he will fail (Cannae, for example).

 

 

And i suppose I'll nitpick about the fascist king part (if you don;t mind :thumbsup:) Fascism is a modern term for a reactionary, militant, petty bourgeois movement. The Stormcloaks are revolutionary, and the TES universe is stuck in a semi-feudal society, creating significant problems for such a movement.

[AnimeOtaku102]

It’s easy to say mead was weak or foolish

Roggi Knot-Beard disapproves of this message.

 

i don't understand your meaning here... care to clarify?

 

---edit

oh, i must be more brain fried than i thought. it took me a minute. nice. ;D

 

---edit again

and i was nice enough to go back and fix the typo too. :rolleyes:

You have appeased the Roggi. For now.

[BrettM]

Also, the Dunmer seem very. very uninterested in the Thalmor, why do you think Malborn fled there? Even so, they've still not recovered from the Red Year. My bet is that the best they could do is occasionally raid the border.

Malborn is a Bosmer, and he was fleeing one of the purges the Thalmor are still conducting in Valenwood. Apparently the Dominion has its own internal problems, but we don't know how extensive or disruptive those problems are and how they might affect any resumption of the war. I would imagine that there are troubles in Summerset as well, and there may be more now that the Psijic Order has re-surfaced. I can't help wondering if even the Khajiit are as pacified as we believe, or, if so, if they will remain that way.

 

As far as I know, the Dominion has no presence in Morrowind at all. Nor does the Empire, who, as I understand it, never actually incorporated Morrowind in the same sense as, say, Hammerfell or Highrock. If you side with the Empire, though, the new Imperial guards in Riften make a little comment about the value of having a base within easy reach of Morrowind. One has to wonder what the Empire has in mind, since any attempt at conquest would be flat-out insane in the Empire's current condition.

[imperistan]

Not sure if I'm being misunderstood here, but I'm saying they just need a Forsworn to pretend to be a typical Reachmen miner (hence "agent") and then use magic to cause mine collapses.

 

Yes, because it wouldn't be suspicious at all to have some completely new face suddenly show up to go to work in the mines and not have anyone verify that they actually belong there.

 

There's a lot that went on (and is still going on) that is automatically assumed to be the Empire's fault, yet very little is explored about possible Thalmor involvement despite them being the ones who obviously benefit the most from such unrest.

 

Of course the damn Thalmor are involved. But that's besides the point.

[luzburg]

Not sure if I'm being misunderstood here, but I'm saying they just need a Forsworn to pretend to be a typical Reachmen miner (hence "agent") and then use magic to cause mine collapses.

 

Yes, because it wouldn't be suspicious at all to have some completely new face suddenly show up to go to work in the mines and not have anyone verify that they actually belong there.

 

Ehm did you visit Markarth at all during the game?

[RighthandofSithis]

Also, the Dunmer seem very. very uninterested in the Thalmor, why do you think Malborn fled there? Even so, they've still not recovered from the Red Year. My bet is that the best they could do is occasionally raid the border.

Malborn is a Bosmer, and he was fleeing one of the purges the Thalmor are still conducting in Valenwood. Apparently the Dominion has its own internal problems, but we don't know how extensive or disruptive those problems are and how they might affect any resumption of the war. I would imagine that there are troubles in Summerset as well, and there may be more now that the Psijic Order has re-surfaced. I can't help wondering if even the Khajiit are as pacified as we believe, or, if so, if they will remain that way.

 

As far as I know, the Dominion has no presence in Morrowind at all. Nor does the Empire, who, as I understand it, never actually incorporated Morrowind in the same sense as, say, Hammerfell or Highrock. If you side with the Empire, though, the new Imperial guards in Riften make a little comment about the value of having a base within easy reach of Morrowind. One has to wonder what the Empire has in mind, since any attempt at conquest would be flat-out insane in the Empire's current condition.

 

Firstly, my point was that Malborn was fleeing for protection. I Know he is a bosmer, and about the Purges. That said, it is likely the Dominion is facing severe problems in its own right. As Elves mature much slower than humans, it will take them much longer to rebuild their armies (unless there was a very large force left in the Dominion, but then wouldn't they have committed that to Hammerfell for its key strategic position?). And as you siad, I'd expect some form of Resistance to be working in the Dominion (but how powerful are they? have they been completely wiped out?).

 

And with the rise of Helseth, and the fall of the Tribunal, the Empire did indeed received (briefly) a strong presence in Morrowind (such as the abolition of slavery etc).

[UrgeNexus]

Not sure if I'm being misunderstood here, but I'm saying they just need a Forsworn to pretend to be a typical Reachmen miner (hence "agent") and then use magic to cause mine collapses.

 

Yes, because it wouldn't be suspicious at all to have some completely new face suddenly show up to go to work in the mines and not have anyone verify that they actually belong there.

 

Ehm did you visit Markarth at all during the game?

Yeah, this is basically how the Forsworn are operating already and nobody really notices until they've done at least some damage, the mine overseers don't care, they get paid a crap wage and have ludicrous quotas to make, so all they care about is getting as much silver out of the ground as they can in the shortest time possible. A new arrival would likely be told "Here to dig? Good, get started and don't stop untill the mine is dry or you keel over!" It also doesn't help that there's a lot of miners (The gameworld is obviously scaled down so we must assume there's hundreds of miners around in "reality"), none of them really stand out, they're just miners.

 

The Forsworn are already sabotaging stuff and the Markarth guard isn't making any real progress stopping them until the Dovahkiin comes along. If the Forsworn were suddenly even more agitated, they'd likely only step up their game. The Forsworn are fairly adept at destruction magic and a simple firebolt can easily destroy support beams or just straight up klll a ton of people, the Forsworn are fanatics, they're not above suicide missions. They'd go in, do as much damage as they could and die for the cause. Would security step up? Probably, but at the end of the day, they have silver to mine. The Forsworn have infiltrated every aspect of Markarth's infrastructure before the Dovahkiin cleans house, they're obviously good at this sort of thing.

 

Short version, don't underestimate the Forsworn.

[WatchMeGoing]

The Forsworn have infiltrated every aspect of Markarth's infrastructure before the Dovahkiin cleans house, they're obviously good at this sort of thing.

 

Only thanks to Thonar Silverblood. He kept Madanach alive, he allowes Madanach to communicate with the rest of the Forsworn (through Nepos), and he pays the city guard to look the other way. What I understood from that Forsworn consipracy quest, is that basically the Forsworn are Thonar's personal assassins. The women attacked in the market, when you first enter Markarth, is an imperial agent looking into Thonar, so he tells Madanach (through Nepos?) that he wants her gone and lo and behold, a Forsworn agent kills her in a supposedly "random" Forsworn attack and nobody suspects Thonar.

 

Not to mention that the Silverbloods own the mines, so it's really easy for them to help the Forsworn to "infiltrate". The mining overseers answer to the Silverbloods, so even if they have suspicions about one of the miners and talk to Thonar about it, he'll probably tell them something along the lines of "I'm not paying you to think, now shut up and get back to work before I name someone else overseer." Or maybe the overseers simply know about Thonar's arangement with the Forsworn and they are actually in on it.

Edited December 10, 2012 by WatchMeGoing

[RighthandofSithis]

The Forsworn have infiltrated every aspect of Markarth's infrastructure before the Dovahkiin cleans house, they're obviously good at this sort of thing.

 

Only thanks Thonar Silverblood. He kept Madanach alive, he allowes Madanach to communicate with the rest of the Forsworn (through Nepos), and he pays the city guard to look the other way. What I understood from that Forsworn consipracy quest, is that basically the Forsworn are Thonar's personal assassins. The women attacked in the market, when you first enter Markarth, is an imperial agent looking into Thonar, so he tells Madanach (through Nepos?) that he wants her gone and lo and behold, a Forsworn agent kills her in a supposedly "random" Forsworn attack and nobody suspects Thonar.

 

Not to mention that the Silverbloods own the mines, so it's really easy for them to help the Forsworn to "infiltrate". The mining overseers answer to the Silverbloods, so even if they have suspicions about one of the miners and talk to Thonar about it, he'll probably tell them something along the lines of "I'm not paying you to think, now shut up and get back to work before I name someone else overseer." Or maybe the overseers simply know about Thonar's arangement with the Forsworn and they are actually in on it.

 

I feel Thonar only uses the forsworn as he sees fit. Such as the assassination of his enemies, or, I believe, harassing the people of Karthwasten to sell their lands. He wouldn't use the forsworn to destroy himself. The forsworn aren;t completly under his control though, as their actions, and the laborers in the mine, indicate.

 

With all this in mind though, after the death of Madanach, there is no control over the Forsworn whatsoever. While without a leader (perhaps that was the point of resurrecting the Red Eagle?) they will be stunned for a while, but they will replace Madanch, and their revolt will increase, but they will no longer have protection in the city of markarth.

[imperistan]

Ehm did you visit Markarth at all during the game?

 

Are you suggesting that a city is the same thing as a mine?

 

The Forsworn are already sabotaging stuff and the Markarth guard isn't making any real progress stopping them until the Dovahkiin comes along

 

Thing is is that this is outside of the hypothetical this issue came out of, and more than that, what the Forsworn are doing currently isn't exactly crippling the economy of Skyrim.

 

All in all, if the Forsworn ever did become a real problem economically, then actual soldiers (that are paid to care) would be put in place to guard and maintain the security of the mines. But until they do, whatever problems they cause would in the big picture be no different than dropping a bit of silver and not bothering to pick it back up. Not good for business, but not exactly causing bankruptcy.