Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[imperistan]

Ulfric had the choice of either making a point by using Torygg as a message or avoid a civil war and secure Skyrim's independence first. Like you said, it was a short-sighted decision, and that short-sighted decision empowers the Thalmor while weakening both Cyrodiil and Skyrim.

 

Problem is there wasn't any guarantee there wouldn't be civil war no matter what. Unlike other Civil Wars, the one in Skyrim isn't necessarily focused on deciding who gets to rule over Skyrim, but whether or not Skyrim should be independent from the Empire, and as we've seen, half of Skyrim disagrees with that notion. Even if Torygg started the drive for independence, I sincerely doubt everyone would have gone along for it nicely. After all, I certainly don't remember any of the Jarl's being die-hard Torygg lovers.

 

At best, the only real difference would have been a differently divided Skyrim than what we have now, with the Empire assuming control of the territories that weren't just going to automatically accept the orders of their king. And then you have the problem of Ulfric himself, who could very well end up causing a civil war within a civil war if he were to leave Torygg alive, as its plainly obvious that Ulfric would end up supplanting Torygg in all but title anyway and for Ulfric, a Nord, why bother skirting the issue?

 

But anyway, the way Ulfric did it was short-sighted (but only because he should have anticipated and better prepared for the divide towards his duel with Torygg. It should have been a public challenge to his rule, not a private one), but to choose the opposite would not have been pretty, both for him personally and for Skyrim as a whole. Namely because it could even further divide Skyrim and would cause Ulfric to have to go about his replacing of Torygg in a not-so-honorable way (which isn't what Ulfric would do) in order to avoid further division and strife.

 

All they really need is a Forsworn agent who knows magic (and there seems to be an awful lot of them) to infiltrate a mine, then apply a few fireballs or exploding runes on support beams

 

It really isn't that simple. Sure it might work at first, but if this starts becoming a habit of the Forsworn then defenses are going to be prepared for it. And this also presumes that magic makes the user super-awesome-can-do-anything, and it doesn't. All the magic in the world doesn't do you any good if a warrior can still force his way through it and put an axe through your skull. The PC and select NPC's might be able to conjure up the magic necessary to completely and consistently neutralize any threat, but not every mage has this power.

 

but from another that action freed Hammerfell from the WGC - or rather the Empire's obligation to enforce it in Hammerfell.

 

I doubt this crossed Mede's mind. Hammerfel was told of the WGC and Hammerfel rejected it. It was then that Mede was "obligated" to abandon Hammerfel. If these events happened concurrently, then perhaps, but they didn't.

 

I doubt the Jarl of Morthal would ever ally herself with the Thalmor, but that Solitude Thane and Black-Briar seem morally flexible enough to do so.

 

Indeed, but look at who these people are. The Jarl gets replaced, the Thane deposed, and Black-Briar, well, she's a criminal. BB might have some influence to cause some problems, but I doubt it'll be enough to really be that big of a benefit to the Dominion.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't unworthy spirits denied access to Shor's Hall and are forced to watch from the windows?

 

All the spirits you encounter in Sovngaarde are technically worthy of access to Shor's Hall (otherwise they wouldn't be in Sovngarde). Its just that being trapped in Alduin's fog tends to make it hard to get to Tsun and prove yourself via the warriors test.

 

And as for not passing that particular test, remember that you're there for eternity. You have plenty of time to become the warrior you need to be to be worthy of entering Shor's Hall, either by dueling others that have not defeated Tsun or through continually fighting Tsun until you win or perhaps win your access via some other way. I can't imagine that a place such as Sovngaarde is so simple that you could only get in by defeating Tsun in pure battle.

 

After all, one does not necessarily need to die in battle to enter Valhalla (But simply live a noble, honorable, and glorious life, even if you aren't a warrior, as again, you have all of eternity to become a great warrior. The other qualities can only be developed in one's own mortal lifetime) and if we are to presume that Sovngaarde is basically Valhalla (Which it is) then I can't imagine that Sovngaarde would be much different.

[BrettM]

I can't imagine that a place such as Sovngaarde is so simple that you could only get in by defeating Tsun in pure battle.

I can't imagine it either, since we meet the founder of the Way of the Voice inside. Wouldn't fighting Tsun violate his principles, or could he rationalize it as being "True Need" or a way of honoring the Divines?

[AnimeOtaku102]

It really isn't that simple. Sure it might work at first, but if this starts becoming a habit of the Forsworn then defenses are going to be prepared for it. And this also presumes that magic makes the user super-awesome-can-do-anything, and it doesn't. All the magic in the world doesn't do you any good if a warrior can still force his way through it and put an axe through your skull. The PC and select NPC's might be able to conjure up the magic necessary to completely and consistently neutralize any threat, but not every mage has this power.

Not sure if I'm being misunderstood here, but I'm saying they just need a Forsworn to pretend to be a typical Reachmen miner (hence "agent") and then use magic to cause mine collapses. Maybe not necessarily a fireball, could be any number of spells, like the ones used by the Stoneweaver Dunmer in Kynesgrove. Sabotage isn't something you can just throw guards at and expect it to resolve itself, especially when the saboteur doesn't need to smuggle explosives about or any specialized gear that can identify them.

 

I doubt this crossed Mede's mind. Hammerfel was told of the WGC and Hammerfel rejected it. It was then that Mede was "obligated" to abandon Hammerfel. If these events happened concurrently, then perhaps, but they didn't.

I'd say it was obvious that Mede had to let Hammerfell go because he didn't want (possibly because he couldn't afford it) to suppress Hammerfell's defiance of the peace treaty. I'm just speculating that the significance of letting a province continue to bog down the Thalmor without violating the peace treaty themselves is kind of hard to overlook. I'll admit I have my biases against Ulfric, but you also seem to readily dismiss any possibility that the Empire might have actually made good decisions and instead attribute it to dumb luck or happy coincidence. Sorry if that sounds like an ad hominem, it's not intended as such.

 

Edit: Something that just came to mind is that we've all pretty much been assuming the civil unrest in Cyrodiil is a sign of the Empire's weakness, but we have evidence that the Thalmor are busy causing and supporting civil unrest in Skyrim, employ human proxies like Ulfric and Saadia (and whoever else Elenwen is recruiting during her parties) to execute some of their plans, and make no secret (to the Dragonborn, at least) that they intend to restart the war. There's a lot that went on (and is still going on) that is automatically assumed to be the Empire's fault, yet very little is explored about possible Thalmor involvement despite them being the ones who obviously benefit the most from such unrest.

 

Indeed, but look at who these people are. The Jarl gets replaced, the Thane deposed, and Black-Briar, well, she's a criminal. BB might have some influence to cause some problems, but I doubt it'll be enough to really be that big of a benefit to the Dominion.

I should have been more clear in my suspicions, but I don't think Elenwen is just stopping at those handful of people. She's courting people like Black-Briar, the heads of both East Empire Company branches in Solitude and Windhelm, and shady Thanes; that's a very short list, but Skyrim's population is rather limited (game design issue, not what the "real" population should be), so we don't know who else she is courting outside of the few that are rendered in-game. It's enough to know she's targeting politicians, merchants, and crime bosses though.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Anime_Otaku102

[UrgeNexus]

I can't imagine that a place such as Sovngaarde is so simple that you could only get in by defeating Tsun in pure battle.

I can't imagine it either, since we meet the founder of the Way of the Voice inside. Wouldn't fighting Tsun violate his principles, or could he rationalize it as being "True Need" or a way of honoring the Divines?

Well, Tsun is a demigod, in direct service to an actual god. I image being told to do something by Tsun would count as honouring the Divines, when Tsun asks you to duel him it's basically a direct request from Shor/Lorkhan, except the missing god is, well missing.

[PolyphonyVibrato]

Put simply, no government is perfect. With that said it's up to you to pick the better side.

 

First decide this, do you like the Thalmer and the Aldmeri dominion or not? On the surface it appears that if you like them you should pick the legion and if not, the stormcloaks, but this is not the case.

 

As a few players point out, the Aldmeri dominion is the only alliance to gain from the civil war, think about it like Hitler in WWII(They do after all claim to be of a superior race just like Hitler did) making demands and getting the Czech's to fight amongst themselves so he could 'restore order'. The only chance the world has at defeating the Altmer and Bosmer is to work together with High Rock and Hammerfell(Already at war with Valenwood, Summerset, and potentially Morrowind). Believe it or not the Empire only tolerates the Thalmor because they're too weak to face them at the moment.

 

Ulfric killed High King Torygg to make an example, but as Elisif his widow and the court members explain, he would have readily supported Ulfric as they were friends and had similar views, but Ulfric killed him anyway. Ulfric is not fighting a war for Skyrim like he claims. Ulfric wants revenge against the Thalmer. While fighting in the Imperial legion he was taken captive by the Thalmer and and tortured by Elenwen. His father(The Bear of Eastmarch) was killed during his incarceration, and when the Imperial's made a deal with the Thalmer at the expense of the Skyrim people he had his excuse. He became the Jarl of Windhelm and rescued Markarth from Thalmor rule after the signing of the White-Gold Concordat so that the people could worship Talos freely. Violence increased in the cities as protestors of the concordat went to the streets and though the empire allowed the worship of Talos in Markarth for a while, the decided they could not jeopardize the peace they were struggling to maintain between themselves and the Thalmer, so they reneged on their promise to allow the worship in Markarth and Igmund agreed to bann the worship to protect his city. Ulfric was infuriated with this double-crossing and played directly into the Thalmer's hands, killing the King of Skyrim and beginning the Great Civil War.

 

I personally believe the best option is to join with the Empire and quell the rebellion quickly, as all you do by joining Ulfric is kill one of the empires greatest generals, tear the Imperial Alliance apart, and allow the Thalmer an easier fight in the future.

[RighthandofSithis]

I personally believe the best option is to join with the Empire and quell the rebellion quickly, as all you do by joining Ulfric is kill one of the empires greatest generals, tear the Imperial Alliance apart, and allow the Thalmer an easier fight in the future.

 

Since when was Tullius considered the Empire's best general? Proventus Avenicci claims he is incompetent and should be recalled during the Quest Diplomatic Immunity (if the battle of whiterun has been finished for the Empire).

 

The Empire is not an alliance, it is an Empire. And a dying one at that. Have a look at the situation in Cyrodiil, and the situation the Legion finds itself in (being unable to resupply Tullius). With this in Mind, do we think that Cyrodiil has recovered its infrastructure following the great war?

 

That said, the Empire once consisted of all of Tamriel (8 provinces). Gradually, the following provinces have become independent: Summerset Isles and Valenwood (Aldmeri Dominion), Elsweyr (Dominion influenced) Black Marsh and finally Hammerfell. Leaving Morrowind (which has still not recovered since the Red Year), Skyrim (in a civil war), Cyrodiil (raging drug lords and gang violence) and High Rock (which has probably returned to its traditional feudal system and it fighting itself again).

 

 

I know this may sound very condescending, but I'm just illustrating that there is much more to the issue than simply saying the Empire has more provinces. In fact, nobody advocates that Skyrim tackle the Dominion alone (though it could certainly holds its own). Personally, I can see the potential for an alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell.

[CasperTheLich]

i don't think we'll ever settle any of the which side is better discussions. we simply don't have enough hard facts about anything that happened during the great war or the aftermath there of, at least that which is outside of skyrim. now, using what we do know we can make assumptions; all day in fact, and we tend to talk rings around each other. It’s easy to say mede was weak or foolish, which does seem to hold some weight; we just can’t be sure. We don’t know what he knew, what he thought he knew, what he didn’t; nor what he was thinking. there seems to be unrest in cyrodiil, but how bad, and how accurate are the texts we read about it. In my opinion there are just too many unknowns to come to any hard conclusions about pretty much anything, or at least in regards to what is the “more correct course of action” on this particular subject. Edited December 8, 2012 by Invisible Man

[RighthandofSithis]

i don't think we'll ever settle any of the which side is better discussions. we simply don't have enough hard facts about anything that happened during the great war or the aftermath there of, at least that which is outside of skyrim. now, using what we do know we can make assumptions; all day in fact, and we tend to talk rings around each other. It’s easy to say mead was weak or foolish, which does seem to hold some weight; we just can’t be sure. We don’t know what he knew, what he thought he knew, what he didn’t; nor what he was thinking. there seems to be unrest in cyrodiil, but how bad, and how accurate are the texts we read about it. In my opinion there are just too many unknowns to come to any hard conclusions about pretty much anything, or at least in regards to what is the “more correct course of action” on this particular subject.

 

Good, I like the debate.

[CasperTheLich]

i don't think we'll ever settle any of the which side is better discussions. we simply don't have enough hard facts about anything that happened during the great war or the aftermath there of, at least that which is outside of skyrim. now, using what we do know we can make assumptions; all day in fact, and we tend to talk rings around each other. It’s easy to say mead was weak or foolish, which does seem to hold some weight; we just can’t be sure. We don’t know what he knew, what he thought he knew, what he didn’t; nor what he was thinking. there seems to be unrest in cyrodiil, but how bad, and how accurate are the texts we read about it. In my opinion there are just too many unknowns to come to any hard conclusions about pretty much anything, or at least in regards to what is the “more correct course of action” on this particular subject.

 

Good, I like the debate.

 

as do i; that is until people start setting fires.

[AnimeOtaku102]

It’s easy to say mead was weak or foolish

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