Nerevarine, 7th Champion of Cyrodiil & Dragonborn

[justwannaddl]

All that proves is that the hero became Sheogorath at least in name. Even if he was fully mantled to the point that he completely lost his original personality at that point, that does not matter. As I explained earlier, the hero could have become Sheogorath before even becoming the hero of Kvatch which is why the full power of an endgame CoC should include the full and surprisingly limited benefits of Sheogorath at the end of the game.

[Lachdonin]

The problem is, the benefits you see at the end of the game are purely for gameplay purposes. We established early on (though some people have chosen to ignore it entirely on the basis that 'only gameplay matters') that the discussion has to be from an in-universe perspective. Let's face it, if they gave you all the powers of creation at your fingertips we would have spent the time building castles out of pillows instead of vanquishing evil.

 

In-universe, when you defeat Jyggalag, you HAVE to be Sheogorath in his entirety, or there is nothing to keep the Shivering Isles from simply winking out of existence. Sheogorath-in-name doesn't cut it, maintaining a world requires immense power, more power than even a Shezzarine (still rather unconvinced there) could muster.

 

Its also a general assumption (though one which, i admit, has never been officially stated) that the sequence of events through the expansions happens chronologically. In Morrowind, at least, this is literal, despite the ability to do thing out of sequence (there are direct references in Tribunal to the defeat of Dagoth Ur, and in Bloodmoon to the disappearance of Almalexia), and everywhere i've seen discussions it's been assumed for both Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

In fact, for the CoC to even be in the running for any of this, it has to be assumed things went in order of the DLC's, because if you Mantled Sheogorath first, then even the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon is the work of the Madgod, not the Champion of Cyrodiil.

[Urtel]

Well, actually i see nothing wrong in Sheogorath fighting Mehrunes, If we consider, that coc entered SI before the whole mess in main quest. Some Daedric princes hate eachother. Im not shure, if these two are enemies.

Also i have a doubt, that it fits the story. When there is an end-of-world-again, how can a hero bother with treasure-hunting and investigations and all that stuff.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Urtel

[Lachdonin]

The problem with the idea of the CoC becoming Sheogorath first, is he then couldn't come through to do anything. Dagon's minions put in a lot of work weakening the barriers between Oblivion and Mundus before Dagon actually appeared. Sheogorath would have had to sit and wait for the same breach, meaning he'd only be able to rear his devilishly handsome head at the Battle for the Imperial City.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Lachdonin

[blacksupernova]

Lachdonin, the problem is we are having disagreement over what truly happened to CoC when he became Sheogorath. You choose to believe that when CoC mantled into mad god, he ceases to exist/ dies, only Sheogorath remains, that CoC HAVE TO BE Sheogorath when he fights Jyggalag. You explained about mantling several times but that's what you believe about mantling, not others. One concept could vary from culture to culture, you seemed to imposed your concept on others (and I don't find any official source about how mantling works in TES universe, if you do have, I would love to read it). Your chosen winner is based on your belief. But that's not what all others believe, you can't deny other's opinion on the basis your belief, don't you think?

 

What I choose to believe is that CoC is Sheogorath when he fought Jyggalag but that was only a title, only when he defeated Jyggalag that he truly became Mad God. But even so, he is still CoC, he did not cease to exist, after 200 years he just... have the personality of Sheogorath because he lives in the land of mad citizens :blush: . Now come to the reason why I believe that.

 

Sheogorath (before he turns into Jyggalag):

"I had intended to give you My staff, the symbol of My office. But life has gone from it, as it goes from Me. It is now dead wood. A useless twig. With the staff, there was hope. But now, hope is dead. I am dead. The Realm...."

Haskill:

"If the Throne of Madness remains empty when Jyggalag storms the palace, he will prevail. But there is a chance that the throne may not be empty."

"My duty now is to the Realm. By serving you, I serve Lord Sheogorath. The only way to protect the Realm from the Greymarch is to place you in the Throne of Madness."

"True, but perhaps you can hold the throne -- provided that you possess the proper symbol of office. Namely: the Staff of Sheogorath."

"Unfortunately, when Sheogorath faded, the power of the Staff faded with him. It must now be remade. The Staff is the symbol of power in this Realm. He who rightfully holds the Staff may hold the throne of the Shivering Isles"

Sheogorath (in Skyrim): "Jolly good guess! But only half right. I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years"

 

All of these, and the next quest: Symbols of Office, lead me to believe that the Staff of Sheogorath is simply a symbol of office. CoC is Sheogorath at that point because he holds the staff - the symbol of power in the realm. And with that, he can sit on the Throne of Madness as Sheogorath when Jyggalag comes. The staff is a symbol, Sheogorath is the title, no more, no less.

 

 

In-universe, when you defeat Jyggalag, you HAVE to be Sheogorath in his entirety, or there is nothing to keep the Shivering Isles from simply winking out of existence. Sheogorath-in-name doesn't cut it, maintaining a world requires immense power, more power than even a Shezzarine (still rather unconvinced there) could muster.

Again, that is just your interpretation. In my understanding, the realm still exists even when the CoC was not Sheogorath and didn't have all his power at that time. The Greymarch had happened so many times ago. That time, the Throne of Madness was empty: there were no Sheogorath to greet Jyggalag. So why the Realm did not wink out of existence back then? If it did wink out of existence, why would Jyggalag be bother to destroy it, and why there are survivors of the last Greymarch: Dyus and Ciirta. It is understandable that Dyus survives the winking realm but Ciirta is just an ordinary citizen, she could not have made it should the realm was ceasing. My interpretation: CoC did not maintain the Shivering Isle at that time, it was Jyggalag because Shivering Isle is afterall originally belong to Jyggalag before it was turned (and that could help to explain Umbra-Clavicus situation, Umbra stole Clavicus' power so his realm was shrinking. Since Sheogorath still exists as Jyggalag, Sheogorath did not cease from exist, nothing is stolen so the realm is not shrinking (Now is that saying something about CoC not ceasing from exist when he mantling into Sheogorath?)). And so, CoC did not necessarily have Sheogorath power when he fought Jyggalag.

 

In my belief, CoC did not cease from exist when he fully became Sheogorath because his dialogue in Skyrim proves that he knows the event of Oblivion Crisis (and of course the Umbra-Clavicus and Sheogorath-Jyggalag relationship I've just mentioned). You may say that because he is daedra, he knows everything happened in Mundus blah...blah...blah. But the point is, that is your guess. There is NO in-game indication that that just because he is daedra so he knows it. However, there is a slight implication that he in fact retains his memory. It is understandable for people to interpret like that based on the dialogue but it does not make sense to dismiss the idea because of someone's guess.

 

What I try to say is we should not impose our own point of view on an event in game on others because everyone have their own interpretation.

 

Even when I believe CoC is still CoC in Skyrim, I would only count him in a fair fight with Nerevarine and Dragonborn up to the point that he defeats Jyggalag. And since he, a mortal with no specialty and blessing from gods, defeats a strongest of the Daedric prince, he is the winner of the three. That is just my choice on the basis of my belief, I'm not saying that it's the fact and I'm not arguing with anyone should they have a different choice :cool: .

Edited August 6, 2013 by blacksupernova

[Lachdonin]

You know what. You are right. I have been pushing the whole "This is how mantling works" thing too hard. And for that, i am sorry. Especially since Walking the Path is only one of the 6, with the 6th still being un-walked. I suppose if i want to continue the conversation in any way, i have to accept the possibility that the CoC COULD be Sheogorath, rather than only vise versa. Anywho...

 

I recently discovered that, contrary to my own belief earlier, Pelenial is not, in fact, an avatar of Lorkhan. He's something of an almost unstoppable (almost, because he does die) unpredictable killing machine from the future. Kirkbride likened him to Gilgamesh-meets-T800, which of course paints a pretty picture. In blood and entrails... If he is the reincarnation of Pelenial (can you reincarnate someone who hasn't been born yet?) then he is certainly more than a normal mortal, which puts him on par from the start with the Dovahkiin and the Nerevarine.

 

I would dispute, however, that Jyggalag was, at the moment you face him, the strongest Daedric Prince. They make a rather large fuss about him 'mustering his power' and after his defeat he goes off to find his strength elsewhere in Oblivion, and perhaps one day regain his station. This implies that he is a pale reflection of his former might. Whether or not he's stronger than Hercine (the only other Deadra a PC defeats in battle) is the point of debate... Really, most people don't even consider Hercine to be a real Daedric Prince.

 

******

In continuing my picking... Nerevar led the battle at Red Mountain against the Nords, defeating Wulfharth, who is supposedly considerably more powerful than Pelenial. The Nerevarine is both more, and less than Nerevar though...

I am definitely starting to lean more towards this being between the Nerevarine and the CoC, mind you... Unless the Dovahkiin is, in fact, the mantle of Talos, in which case he would win hands down.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Lachdonin

[sajuukkhar9000]

I recently discovered that, contrary to my own belief earlier, Pelenial is not, in fact, an avatar of Lorkhan. He's something of an almost unstoppable (almost, because he does die) unpredictable killing machine from the future. Kirkbride likened him to Gilgamesh-meets-T800, which of course paints a pretty picture. In blood and entrails... If he is the reincarnation of Pelenial (can you reincarnate someone who hasn't been born yet?) then he is certainly more than a normal mortal, which puts him on par from the start with the Dovahkiin and the Nerevarine.

Being a time traveler doesn't mean he isn't an avatar of Lorkhan.

 

 

I would dispute, however, that Jyggalag was, at the moment you face him, the strongest Daedric Prince. They make a rather large fuss about him 'mustering his power' and after his defeat he goes off to find his strength elsewhere in Oblivion, and perhaps one day regain his station. This implies that he is a pale reflection of his former might. Whether or not he's stronger than Hercine (the only other Deadra a PC defeats in battle) is the point of debate... Really, most people don't even consider Hercine to be a real Daedric Prince.

You dont even fight Hircine, but rather, an aspect of him. as he says in bloodmoon, fighting the full power of him would be unfair, and unsportsmanlike.

Also, you are thinking of Malacath as a Daedraic prince the others dont consider a Daedra. Nothing, to my best knowledge, has said anyone doesn't consider Hircine as full dadric prince.

Edited August 16, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Lehcar]

Dragonborn will be the 10th divine.

[Lachdonin]

'On Oblivion' indicates that Hercine is, or was, little known and regarded as a powerful Daedra, though it was unknown if he was actually a Daedric Prince. In rereading it, it is less assertive in his lower status than i remember. Either way, though, i don't think any PC's have encountered a Daedric Prince at his full potential, aside from Dagon in Oblivion, and lets face it... Aint no body got time for that.

 

As for Pelenial, he's not on Kirkbride's list of Avatars of Lorkhan, so i for one don't consider him a Shezzarine.

[sajuukkhar9000]

As for Pelenial, he's not on Kirkbride's list of Avatars of Lorkhan, so i for one don't consider him a Shezzarine.

You are aware that list came out before Knights of the Nine, and before Pelinal was actually made into a shezzarine?