Nerevarine, 7th Champion of Cyrodiil & Dragonborn

[x3Darkie]

I disagree, actually. Just because one ascended to godhood, doesn't mean that they are not who they in life. In Skyrim's Sheogorath's quest, he even had dialog that hints that he's the CoC(which isn't really the point). The point is, I believe that the CoC is still himself. Even if he became mad, just like Talos.

[sajuukkhar9000]

I disagree, actually. Just because one ascended to godhood, doesn't mean that they are not who they in life. In Skyrim's Sheogorath's quest, he even had dialog that hints that he's the CoC(which isn't really the point). The point is, I believe that the CoC is still himself. Even if he became mad, just like Talos.

Talos only retained himself after becoming a god because he was already the god he became, i.e. Lorkhan.

 

The CoC mantling Sheogroath did in fact change the CoC, in his/her entirety, into Sheogorath. That's part of the point of mantling.

[CaptainRC]

Problem you guys are missing about the CoC Is that he is not the Prince of Madness. Yes he mantled Sheogorath but by the time he would have actually become Sheogorath he wouldn't be the CoC anymore and could not reasonably be considered under this hypothetical match off. They are two distinct beings, whose only connection is one eventually dissolving into the other as the Prince of Madness rebuilds himself using the essence of the CoC. And this isn't to mention that his powers from mantling Sheogorath only work while within the Shivering Isles. So unless this fight takes place in the Shivering Isles, the CoC is mortal.

 

And as for the Divine Relics, remember that even Pelinal wasn't exactly invincible with these relics. He was dismembered after all while wearing them.

 

Despite our differences of opinion before, I have to agree with you on this one... at least to a degree. I believe that Sheogorath is the Champion of Cyrodiil for three reasons:

 

The first, as mentioned before, the dialog between himself and Pelagius III mentioning that he "was there for that whole sordid affair." (referring to the Oblivion Crisis)

The second is that he points out to the Dragonborn that Sheogorath "is a title passed down from me to me." (referring to the events of Shivering Isles)

 

But the third, and most important in my opinion, is a bit more complex, though I'm surprised that it wasn't more obvious to everyone... the quest itself. Essentially, he transports the Dragonborn into the mind of Pelagius III and gives him the Wabbajack so that he can use it to "treat" Pelagius' madness and make him "so boringly sane."

 

Think about that for a moment. Doesn't that go completely against the very idea of being the Daedric Prince of Madness? I mean, he supposed to lead people into madness... or "down the Golden Road"... not cure people, dead or otherwise, of it.

 

Which leads me to believe two things:

 

1. Given his previous comments, he still retains his memories of his old mortal life.

2. He also still retains at least some of his old mortal moral sensabilities, which could indicate that his perceived madness is either a ruse, or he hasn't gone completely bonkers yet.

 

So, while he is Sheogorath in name, his transformation into him in spirit may not be either complete or even be happening at all. But it seems that he has gained much, if not all of his power. Remember that he has achieved immortality, given that he's still around after 200 years. In that amount of time, it's inconceivable to exactly how much power he has learned or acquired. After all, he was able to transport not only himself but the Dragonborn and a servant into the mind of a "dead, homicidally insane monarch," which clearly suggests god-like power and being able to use it outside the Shivering Isles. Who knows what else he can do.

 

But to get on-topic, as to who is more powerful... I can't really say. Mainly because I never played Morrowind and that the Dragonborn's story isn't really completed yet (at least until Bethesda says that they've released the very last DLC). But if I was to hazard a guess... I'd say it's the Champion, due to his Daedric Prince status...

 

... at least for now. Who knows? For all we know, Bethesda may make the Dragonborn the next Talos, and then he'll be able to whip anyone. Except, perhaps, another Divine.

Edited December 10, 2012 by CaptainRC

[Lachdonin]

The Dialogue with Pelagius proves nothing, really. The Daedra are present, pretty much all the time, everywhere. Or at least as much as they want to be, up until actually, physically crossing the barrier. Sheogorath was also particularly interested in the events in Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis, because it gave him a chance to break the cycle of the Greymarch. Because of his interest and proximity to Cyrodiil during the time, his experiences could very well be those of the Daedra himself.

 

As for the quest in Skyrim, he states that you don't so much cure, as 'treat', Pelagius, implying the futility in your actions and the gradual return of Pelagius to the deranged lunatic we all know. To me, it was very much the Madgod talking, because it embodyed the very essence of instanity, trying to change something with absolutely no hope of success.

 

Nothing Sheogorath does in Skyrim is out of character for him, which gives no indication that anything of the CoC remains. And again, that's not how Mantling works. It is an instantaneous transformation into something different, not a gradual acclimation of power. When he mantled Sheogorath, the CoC died, and only Sheogorath remaind. This is about the CoC, Nerevarine and Dragonborn. Not Sheogorath, Nerevarine and the Dragonborn.

 

... at least for now. Who knows? For all we know, Bethesda may make the Dragonborn the next Talos, and then he'll be able to whip anyone. Except, perhaps, another Divine.

 

Or a CHIM.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Lachdonin

[Xahi111]

From seventh sign of eleventh generation,

 

Neither Hound nor Guar, nor Seed nor Harrow,

 

But >>>>>>DRAGON-BORN<<<<< and far-star-marked,

 

Outlander Incarnate beneath Red Mountain,

 

Blessed Guest counters seven curses,

 

Star-blessed hand wields thrice-cursed blade,

 

To reap the harvest of the unmourned house.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Morrowind:The Lost Prophecy

 

 

 

I guess the first place goes to CoC because hes...... a god ;)

Second would be Nereva, because next to all the already mentioned stuff, hes also a Dragonborn ...... if he had wished so, he, just like any other dragonborn, could have killed alduin, (if you dont belive me, wait until "dragonborn" is out for pc and listen to miraak)

Last place goes to skyrims Dragonborn , cause hes "just" a dragonborn.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Xahi111

[Lachdonin]

I guess the first place goes to CoC because hes...... a god ;)

 

Again though, not a god. We've been over this rather extensively.

 

As for the Dragon Born thing, They've (bethesda) stated that the intent was for that to mean Empire born, not that he was Dovahkiin.

[ub3rman123]

Besides, even if CoC is a god, it doesn't seem to count for much. He's only sort of immortal in the Shivering Isles, which likely wouldn't be where he'd fight the Nerevarine who has all those convenient recall/intervention spells to let him choose where to fight.

[sajuukkhar9000]

But >>>>>>DRAGON-BORN<<<<< and far-star-marked,

Todd Howard confirmed ages ago that the term Dragon-Born, when used in the Nerevarine prophecy, meant he was born in the Empire.

 

they even say that like, 6 times in Morrowind itself.

[blackninja50]

Who is strongest? easy, The Champion of Cyrodiil. Because the CoC is a nothing special mortal that rows to the challenge and saved the world with nothing more then his/her own strength. On the other hand the Dragonborn completely relies on the power of the voice aka the power of the gods, and the Nerevarine relies on the godly powers of his past self and that's hardly sporting. So in terms of true strength the CoC is the clear winner.

 

Of coarse in a fight the Dragonborn wins hands down because all she needs to do is "Fuz Ro Rah" and CoC and Nerevarine go flying off the cliff to there pitiful deaths.

[Lachdonin]

Of coarse in a fight the Dragonborn wins hands down because all she needs to do is "Fuz Ro Rah" and CoC and Nerevarine go flying off the cliff to there pitiful deaths.

 

Levitate, Slowfall, Recall... Nerevarine has lots of ways out of falling to his death.