Dudeman325 Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) Lorkhan is a divine. Talos / Hjalti / Tiber Septim was a general who built an empire (just like Nerevar) and may or may not have been reborn. Lorkhan has many faces, and he isn't mantled by one person all the time. Edit: One last thing before I go to bed. I thought it was interesting to note that Nerevar was killed in the attempt to gain the very tools that are used to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan, and which may be responsible for the Dwemer disappearing. Edited December 15, 2012 by Dudeman325 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luzburg Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Nerevar had more to do with Azura I thought, not Lorkhan. Maybe you can say the Nerevarrine is related to Lorkhan but not the original Chimer himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudeman325 Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) (I said this was the last one... :D ) I think you've nailed it on the head there. Nerevar himself is mostly related to Lorkhan through the Chimer's transformation into Dunmer. I don't think that they had much to do with Lorkhan's Test before then. Edit: Here's a great page to read on this topic. Shezarrines Edited December 15, 2012 by Dudeman325 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Nerevar had more to do with Azura I thought, not Lorkhan. Maybe you can say the Nerevarrine is related to Lorkhan but not the original Chimer himself.Vivec calls Nerevar the hands of PADHOME, Padhome being the primal force of change, and Lorkhan's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luzburg Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Heh. I'm learning here :D. Thats interesting yet confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 The last confirmed avatar of Lorkhan was Tiber Septim, and that confirmation comes after Morrowind's release. Tiber Septim's rise to godhood returned Lorkhan to the pantheon of Tamriel, thus removing the nessesity of the wandering over-soul and the avatars. Because of that, we cannot instantly assume that the Nerevarine, CoC and Dragonborn are avatars of Lorkhan. Vivec's referance to Padomay can also not be taken at absolute face value because of the fact he is CHIM (and thus has greater insight into the workings of the universe) and is constantly peaking in alagory anyway. His referance to the Nerevarine being the 'Hand of Padhome' could just as likely mean he was a force of change in the world. All three are certianly related to Lorkhan, but so is everything else on Nirn. Lorkhan's divinity was, and likely still is, the powering force of Mundus, infusing everything with the potential for change rather than the static nature of it's divine creators. The propensity for change and a realse from the nature-bound existance of divinity was the whole purpose behind Mundus in the first place, a purpose placed upon it by Lorkhan after his failure to comprehend the Tower. If you consider the Nerevarine, CoC and Dragonborn to be avatars of Lorkhan based on their ability to drive change without being bound to a particular nature (for instance, Dagon drives change, but can only do so through destruction) then every Black Soul on Nirn is the same. As an interesting note, however, Lorkhan, through the use of the Shezzarines, appears to have actually succeeded where he earlier failed. Since Talos seems to have acheived CHIM prior to taking his throne in the Pantheon of the Divines, and Talos is Lorkhan, it means that Lorkhan has managed to use Nirn to do exactly what it was intended for. Through mortality and a freedom of internal-nature, he gained understanding of the Wheel and the Tower and of the nature of reality. But i digress, the point is, we have nothing telling us that there were Shezzarines following Talos. We do know the Nerevarine interacted with an avatar of Talos, Wulf, but nothing beyond that. We also know that the Daedra are agents of change (albeit external agents) on Nirn, and are predominantly related to Padomay, so Vivec's referance could have just as easily been in regards to the Nerevarine being a Daedric agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudeman325 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Heh. I'm learning here :D. Thats interesting yet confusing. I think Lachdonin really helped prove that this is what The Elder Scrolls is like. There are a whole lot of things going on, changing in so many ways, but is also the same in so many ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I think Lachdonin really helped prove that this is what The Elder Scrolls is like. There are a whole lot of things going on, changing in so many ways, but is also the same in so many ways... There is a reason why the Elder Scrolls lore is one of my favorite in all of videogame fiction (and even in general fiction). The constant contradictions, convoluted explinations and general nonsesne, mized with the meta-perspective and the clearly propaganized in-game literature makes it one of the most alive universes out there. More often than not, you are given two or more perpsectives on the exact same thing (take for instance the Allessian Dragonbreak) and left to try to come to your own conclusions after the fact. Most fictional universes would give you an objective view on it, telling you exactly what happened, but The Elder Scrolls aren't so simple. It's like our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudeman325 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) If you consider the Nerevarine, CoC and Dragonborn to be avatars of Lorkhan based on their ability to drive change without being bound to a particular nature (for instance, Dagon drives change, but can only do so through destruction) then every Black Soul on Nirn is the same.This comment really got me thinking about the relationship between Aedra, Daedra, Mortal Heroes, and "Soul Trapping." I think its more or less established that Lorkhan was "Soul Trapped" within Nirn, and Mortals in general, along with some Lesser "Aedra" who got sucked in. This made me think of mostly more questions that I don't think have definite answers. Were the other Eight Divines soul trapped as well, perhaps on their own "planets"? Akatosh seems like one that can get out from time to time, but it would explain why the others aren't really present, yet still a part of Mortal life. I don't know if we've seen an example of a Mortal Hero being "Soul Trapped." Is this what happened to Talos? What about Arkay, with his Quasi-Mortal status? Have the Daedra been "Soul Trapped" in their own planes? How does this relate to Mankar Camoran's claim that Tamriel was another plane of Oblivion, and that Lorkhan was its Daedric Master? Soul Gems come naturally from the "Earth Bones." Does the very nature of Soul Trapping itself have to do with Aedra, Daedra, and Those Who Came Before? It seems to be a repetitive cycle... Edit: One last thought before I go to bed (yeah right :wallbash: ). I think its interesting to note that Lorkhan is considered to be a "Prisoner" of Nirn, possibly unjustly so. Each player character since Morrowind started as a Prisoner with no determinable crime or punishment, and an unexpected escape related to the Septim bloodline. And each one seems to be taking on more Faces each time around. Edited December 16, 2012 by Dudeman325 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relativelybest Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Or a CHIM. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CHIM basically just a kinda outlandishly meta fanon theory based on a few very vauge references in the lore? For that matter, the concept of mantling seems kinda suspect to me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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