SSE Mod release bug. I think it's from the game engine Any comments are welcome!

[cumbrianlad]

Edit: It's fixed!

 

The problem was the trapdoors themselves and the Porthole access in the Ragged Flagon. I was using FarmBtrapdoor02 and checking the form, these are flagged 'minimal use'. The Flagon porthole access was the first of 2 options and this one is not flagged as minimal use... the other is. I simply swapped the Ragged Flagon access for the minimal use version, duplicated the FarmBtrapdoor02 form, un-checked the minimal use flag and swapped my house trapdoors for this version on the ones that led into the cellar from the exterior and ground floor.

 

hey presto! The quest is now flagged correctly at all times. This should also permanently put to rights the family, housecarl and stewards trooping off to Riften when they want to enter the cellar.

 

Hi.

 

I'll define the issue and invite comments.

 

I have a player home. In the cellar is a trapdoor leading to a dungeon. At the other end is a vanilla cell, linked by a trapdoor.

 

A very confusing error showed up in my own testing (no player has yet reported it). One quest objective is an NPC. Testing, this one time, the quest marker pointed to the vanilla entrance to the dungeon. In numerous other tests, it pointed to the house, wherever the NPC was, either in the exterior or interior. Following the quest markers led me to the NPC who had been in the house all along! At all other times, testing correctly pointed to the house.

 

The NPC is behaving correctly but the game is (occasionally) trying to direct players the long way around.

 

1) Do you agree that this is a game engine problem?

2) What do you suggest?

 

Edit: I've just had an epiphany. (Ooh, it hurt, wouldn't recommend it). In one of my quests, the player is twice invited to check on how work is progressing at the house. The quest objectives are both default set stage triggers in two of the interiors. For the first, I know that the player has to check the ground floor, but the quest marker is always placed on the back door, rather than the easier (for the player, relative to the fast travel marker) front door. For the second it is in the cellar. in this case a load door direct to the cellar is always chosen by the game engine.

 

Looking at both of these, mathematically, the load door closest to the centre of the quest objective (the centre of the trigger box), is the one chosen as the objective.

 

I am guessing here, of course, but I suspect that what is happening is this...

 

1) The quest updates.

2) The game engines checks for any next objective. If it finds one, it assigns the best (nearest) route to that objective at the time.

3) The game engine, having done its job, moves on to weightier matters.

4) It defines the best route as being the closest door to the target at the moment in time that it checks.

5) If that target moves subsequently, it cares not a jot, because it does not and can not constantly update this info.

6) In my case, the NPC does occasionally pass by the entrance to the dungeon that is in the cellar. She could have been logged as being there when the game engine selected the objective. then it's 50/50 whether it selects the vanilla end or the entrance to the house.

 

If you're reading this, this is just my conjecture based on what I see. It by no means is a statement that this is how the game-engine is working. I'd love comments, though.

[maxarturo]

Quest markers will always show where the nearest / closest / smaller in length NavMesh distance is, this can change according to where the AI package dictates that the npc should be.

The closest distance has nothing to do with what the player in game expirience as length distance, think alway in NavMesh terms.

Edited May 21, 2020 by maxarturo

[cumbrianlad]

Hey, Maxarturo.

 

I know where you are coming from, but this seems odd. We've had this discussion before, when I first had the problem with NPCs wandering to Riften in my mod. This is different. In that case, it was simply down to a mistake on my part. This is not. (as far as I know).

 

In no way is the navmesh closest to where Aia (the NPC in question) is located at any time, by any logical way I can work it out. All navmesh in all cells has been tested by me and the (160 and counting) players who've downloaded.

The NPC (Aia) can only be in the exterior cell or one of two interior cells. I've even had videos on YouTube proving she goes where her pAackages tell her to.

 

To get to her, the player needs to fast travel to the exterior cell and may need to enter one of the interior cells.* That's it. Fast travel, 2 to a few dozen navmesh triangles and you get to her. I know.

 

Load cell doors: min, 0, max, 1. navmesh triangles, maybe 40 or 50 (guess)

 

To do get to her by the entrance to the dungeon means: Fast travel to the Riften Thieves' Guild entrance, open the secret door, use the teleport to to get to the 'cistern', go through there and use the load door to enter the 'Ragged Flagon', from there, go all the way around the water and find a trapdoor. Use that to get to the dungeon. From here you go through (shortest possible route) 3 load doors and 3 massive cells, all navmeshed. Then you enter into the cellar of the home. From here, Aia could be in the cellar or she could be on the ground floor or in the exterior. She will be nowhere else.

 

Load doors: min 7. Navmesh triangles: I couldn't even begin to guess. I'd say a few thousand. It could be more or less, but it's going to be massive.

 

When I found Aia, following the suggested route, she was cooking on the ground floor of the house, as she ought to be at that time of day, going by her packages.

 

* Due to her packages. She moves between interior and exterior locations. All are within the Location.

[lofgren]

Quest markers take locked doors into account. Does the NPC lock her door sometimes? Most do.

 

When the quest marker is on the other side of a loading door, the nearest loading door is what the game uses to determine distance, regardless of how much distance there is on the other side of that loading door to get to the target.

 

Quest markers do not (I am pretty sure) take fast travel into account, so the player fast travelling is not relevant. If the entrance to the dungeon is a closer walk than the entrance to the house, the marker will point to the entrance to the dungeon.

 

I wouldn't call this a bug by any stretch. It's just the way this game system works.

 

If you want to guarantee that the player goes to the house, then I would have the quest marker point to the door to the house until the player enters, and then update it to point to the NPC.

[cumbrianlad]

Iofgren,

thanks or that.

 

She does not lock doors but it's your comment about the 'nearest loading door' being used to determine distance, which is backing up my suspicion.

 

When the quest updates, if the NPC is next to the dungeon trapdoor in the cellar, the game could pick the vanilla approach to that as being the best route?

 

I'd guess from her packages that she has a slim chance of being near the load door that is causing the issue when the quest updates. That also fits with the fact that I've tested dozens of times without this happening, but it did, this once.

 

Ideally, I'd like to test again with this load door disabled, but it could take dozens of tests to prove the theory.

 

Thanks.

 

Food for thought. I could leave it as it stands, or update the quest to eliminate the possibility.

[IsharaMeradin]

If it were just pointing to a back door vs a front door, I'd say leave it. But since it can sometimes point to a dungeon entrance instead, I'd recommend tweaking the quest so that it always points at the front door.

[cumbrianlad]

Thanks for that, IsharaMeradin.

 

Given what had been said so far, I have had a bit of a brainwave. As that the problem may stem from her being close to the dungeon trapdoor when the quest updates, I can give her a quest package at this point to ensure that she is either in the ground floor of the house or the exterior. This way she is not even in the cell with the trapdoor when the quest updates. I'd prefer the marker to point to Aia because the player needs to speak to her at this stage.

 

If I make a save just before that stage of the quest, then I can repeatedly run the stage and see if I ever get directed to her via the dungeon. If it works consistently, I can just leave that package on her quest alias. That will not seem odd to any player and even gets around the potential to need to waken her to talk about her work.

 

I'll let you know if this works because it could be very useful for anyone else doing a similar thing.