Alignment choices and why

[RighthandofSithis]

I don't see how you can refute the fact that Ulfric has been used to further Thalmor interests. I really can't.

 

he has been, but a stormcloak victory in the war will turn out to be a problem for them, and they admit it.

[luzburg]

I already have, multiple times. Now, to say that the actions of Ulfric happened to be beneficial towards Thalmor interests is another thing entirely (as long as he doesn't actually win), but by deliberately choosing the word "use" you are inferring again that he is under their control.

 

So the problem you have is with how much influence I suggested the Thalmor had over Ulfric. OK, we're getting somewhere.

 

The Dossier clearly states that they make contact with Ulfric. I'm not suggesting that he knew it was a Thalmor agent, it could easily have been someone masquerading as an Imperial Officer (like they did in the 'Siege on the Dragon Cult' quest) or something else. The part I agree is stretching the dossier's content, is that the Thalmor directly manipulated Ulfric into committing the atrocities in Markarth. I believe they did just that.

 

What atrocities? The only account of these supposed crimes is from an Imperial scholar who is clearly biased above and beyond his ethnic affiliation, having written a book that glorifies the Forsworn, in fact he is so partisan that he does not even believe in Talos (and that's what I call a real agent of the Thalmor). I don't really understand your beef with the greatest champion of national liberation in Tamriel.

 

"National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . . "

—Woodrow Wilson with his famous self-determination speech on 11 February 1918 after he announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918.

 

Alright. Now you must be trolling. Nationalists committing atrocities against peoples who they believe are threatening their nation is certainly not a fantasy.

The game itself lets you talk to people who suffered in the wake of the Markarth Incident. I know game dialogue is not always relevant to what really happened, but it still matters.

[ZagreustheLiar]

I already have, multiple times. Now, to say that the actions of Ulfric happened to be beneficial towards Thalmor interests is another thing entirely (as long as he doesn't actually win), but by deliberately choosing the word "use" you are inferring again that he is under their control.

 

So the problem you have is with how much influence I suggested the Thalmor had over Ulfric. OK, we're getting somewhere.

 

The Dossier clearly states that they make contact with Ulfric. I'm not suggesting that he knew it was a Thalmor agent, it could easily have been someone masquerading as an Imperial Officer (like they did in the 'Siege on the Dragon Cult' quest) or something else. The part I agree is stretching the dossier's content, is that the Thalmor directly manipulated Ulfric into committing the atrocities in Markarth. I believe they did just that.

 

What atrocities? The only account of these supposed crimes is from an Imperial scholar who is clearly biased above and beyond his ethnic affiliation, having written a book that glorifies the Forsworn, in fact he is so partisan that he does not even believe in Talos (and that's what I call a real agent of the Thalmor). I don't really understand your beef with the greatest champion of national liberation in Tamriel.

 

"National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . . "

—Woodrow Wilson with his famous self-determination speech on 11 February 1918 after he announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918.

 

Alright. Now you must be trolling. Nationalists committing atrocities against peoples who they believe are threatening their nation is certainly not a fantasy.

The game itself lets you talk to people who suffered in the wake of the Markarth Incident. I know game dialogue is not always relevant to what really happened, but it still matters.

 

I'm not saying that there has never been ethnic conflict or atrocities committed in the name of nationalism, I'm saying there is no independent, verifiable and clear account that what you say happened during the Markarth incident. And you seem to forget that the city had been taken by a group of Daedra-worshipping mass murderers, who can be independently and clearly verified as being really f***ing awful people, just hop in the game.

[luzburg]

I'm not saying that there has never been ethnic conflict or atrocities committed in the name of nationalism, I'm saying there is no independent, verifiable and clear account that what you say happened during the Markarth incident. And you seem to forget that the city had been taken by a group of Daedra-worshipping mass murderers, who can be independently and clearly verified as being really f***ing awful people, just hop in the game.

 

I choose to see how the Forsworn are now as being the result of Ulfric's actions. Just like the Falmer fell into savagery after the Dwemer betrayed them, the Forsworn have fallen after their dream of a free kingdom was broken by the heel of Ulfric. The fact is that your hero of national liberation quashed a national liberation.

[ZagreustheLiar]

I'm not saying that there has never been ethnic conflict or atrocities committed in the name of nationalism, I'm saying there is no independent, verifiable and clear account that what you say happened during the Markarth incident. And you seem to forget that the city had been taken by a group of Daedra-worshipping mass murderers, who can be independently and clearly verified as being really f***ing awful people, just hop in the game.

 

I choose to see how the Forsworn are now as being the result of Ulfric's actions. Just like the Falmer fell into savagery after the Dwemer betrayed them, the Forsworn have fallen after their dream of a free kingdom was broken by the heel of Ulfric. The fact is that your hero of national liberation quashed a national liberation.

 

Yeah, you choose being the operative phrase here. Besides, who cares about some stinking Daedra worshippers?

[blackninja50]

I'm not saying that there has never been ethnic conflict or atrocities committed in the name of nationalism, I'm saying there is no independent, verifiable and clear account that what you say happened during the Markarth incident. And you seem to forget that the city had been taken by a group of Daedra-worshipping mass murderers, who can be independently and clearly verified as being really f***ing awful people, just hop in the game.

 

I choose to see how the Forsworn are now as being the result of Ulfric's actions. Just like the Falmer fell into savagery after the Dwemer betrayed them, the Forsworn have fallen after their dream of a free kingdom was broken by the heel of Ulfric. The fact is that your hero of national liberation quashed a national liberation.

 

Yeah, you choose being the operative phrase here. Besides, who cares about some stinking Daedra worshippers?

 

So being Daedra worshipers means there lives are valueless? That no one should care if a few million of them are killed? And to answer your question who cares? I think there orphaned and homeless children and families care but thats about it.

Edited January 8, 2013 by blackninja50

[RighthandofSithis]

Alright. Now you must be trolling. Nationalists committing atrocities against peoples who they believe are threatening their nation is certainly not a fantasy.

The game itself lets you talk to people who suffered in the wake of the Markarth Incident. I know game dialogue is not always relevant to what really happened, but it still matters.

 

There is no evidence of a mass slaughter. Certainly there where killings, but the fact that there are numerous Forsworn Agents that survived the attack indicates that a number of Reachmen where spared, and that the Author of the book was exaggerating.

 

Of course there where stories such as Braig's. But what are we to expect from such an act of war?

 

Furthermore, Galmar refutes these Imperial claims. And the Empire didn't seem to care about these murders until now, when they can use it as propaganda against Ulfric. Igmund doesn't say anything about them, and if the Empire truly cared, they'd surrender the Reach to the Reachmen.

[luzburg]

Alright. Now you must be trolling. Nationalists committing atrocities against peoples who they believe are threatening their nation is certainly not a fantasy.

The game itself lets you talk to people who suffered in the wake of the Markarth Incident. I know game dialogue is not always relevant to what really happened, but it still matters.

 

There is no evidence of a mass slaughter. Certainly there where killings, but the fact that there are numerous Forsworn Agents that survived the attack indicates that a number of Reachmen where spared, and that the Author of the book was exaggerating.

 

Of course there where stories such as Braig's. But what are we to expect from such an act of war?

 

Furthermore, Galmar refutes these Imperial claims. And the Empire didn't seem to care about these murders until now, when they can use it as propaganda against Ulfric. Igmund doesn't say anything about them, and if the Empire truly cared, they'd surrender the Reach to the Reachmen.

 

An imperial saying one thing happened, a stormcloak saying it didn't happen. Both cancel each other out. I guess its down to personal interpretation of fairly limited info.

 

I didn't say the empire cared. I'm not totally pro empire, not as it is right now. If Ulfric was removed from the equation I'd probably side with the rebellion.

[ZagreustheLiar]

Alright. Now you must be trolling. Nationalists committing atrocities against peoples who they believe are threatening their nation is certainly not a fantasy.

The game itself lets you talk to people who suffered in the wake of the Markarth Incident. I know game dialogue is not always relevant to what really happened, but it still matters.

 

There is no evidence of a mass slaughter. Certainly there where killings, but the fact that there are numerous Forsworn Agents that survived the attack indicates that a number of Reachmen where spared, and that the Author of the book was exaggerating.

 

Of course there where stories such as Braig's. But what are we to expect from such an act of war?

 

Furthermore, Galmar refutes these Imperial claims. And the Empire didn't seem to care about these murders until now, when they can use it as propaganda against Ulfric. Igmund doesn't say anything about them, and if the Empire truly cared, they'd surrender the Reach to the Reachmen.

 

An imperial saying one thing happened, a stormcloak saying it didn't happen. Both cancel each other out. I guess its down to personal interpretation of fairly limited info.

 

I didn't say the empire cared. I'm not totally pro empire, not as it is right now. If Ulfric was removed from the equation I'd probably side with the rebellion.

 

Really, and why is that? Considering the enormous hardships and obstacles he has faced down he's a competent and charismatic leader by all accounts who in the face of torture and horrible death will not rescind his beliefs or compromise his integrity. (Although you're a punk if your headcanon does not involve supplanting or surpassing him, the Dovahkin are born to rule).

[MidbossVyers]

Why is it that any thread that only slightly references the Stormcloaks is always somehow completely about them? There are plenty of threads already about the Civil War. I had only used the previous factions, as a means to move the conversation to about the 2 new factions in Dragonborn: The Rieklings and the Thirsk. Does anyone have any information about them? Also, yes, the Thalmor wanted Ulfric to rebel against the Empire. However, that milk has already been spilled (as it were), so there's little point to talk about that, now. Currently, according to the Thalmor Dossier, any decisive victory in Skyrim would damage the Thalmor goals, so as long as you, the Dragonborn, finish the war ASAP regardless of which side wins, it would be fighting against the Thalmor. Although, in terms of short-term effects, a Stormcloak victory seems to end up with more dead Thalmor.