nt5raham Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 I'm approaching this from the perspective that Vortex should not be installed in \Program Files\ because of "known issues" with Windows management in that path. If that is true, then why do we as a community have the Vortex installer putting Vortex in \Program Files\? Both the automatic install, and the default path for the manual install, go to \Program Files\. This is counterintuitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustaCalidia Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 (edited) Vortex is in \Program Files\ because, well, it's a program! There's nothing surprising about that. I see many in these forums who think anything game related should never be in the Windows programs files for what are described as "known issues." I do not deny that there are those who have real "program file" issues in their games. However, these "known issues" apparently don't know that I exist, because I've never been troubled by them. In the past fourteen years (beginning with Vista) I have installed all my Steam and non-Steam games in the Windows program files with no Windows related issues. What problems I did have were demonstrably game related, not Windows related. Why others are plagued by these problems but I'm not is a mystery to me. The same is true for Vortex. Since first installing Vortex (in \Program Files\) two and a half years ago, my experience with Vortex has been remarkably trouble-free. By the way, what's counter intuitive? That Tannin42 would ever put Vortex in \Program Files\ in the first place, or that the default path for the automatic installer as well as the custom installer is \Program Files\, or both? Finally, in the long ago of these forums, Tannin42 had a number of interesting things to say about Vortex, games, and \Program Files\. You may want to do a search for his various remarks. Edited August 3, 2020 by AugustaCalidia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nt5raham Posted August 3, 2020 Author Share Posted August 3, 2020 Yes, I should have put "known issues" in quotes in my OP because I don't "know" what they are (now corrected). But people I have come to respect in this community and who often have the correct answer in other areas seem to agree on this. I guess the thing that is baffling me is that if they are "known" by someone "in the know" then why "knowingly" put Vortex users into a potentially damaging situation? Put the default installation path Elsweyr. :yes: (Apologies to Sofia for stealing her material.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustaCalidia Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 @nt5raham Please note that I have edited my earlier post and have added additional comment. I was in the midst of doing that when you posted your latest remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nt5raham Posted August 3, 2020 Author Share Posted August 3, 2020 @AugustaCalidia, there is a reason why my OP is phrased in terms of a premise, followed by an IF > THEN (conditional) statement. I don't know the facts, but I've heard about these "known issues" a lot and now I am finding myself repeating the mantra. I don't like doing that without a reason. The counterintuitive part is simply that IF this is damaging THEN it is counterintuitive to set users up to fail by leading them down the wrong path (pun intended). :teehee: And by extension, IF it is not damaging, THEN I need to stop with the mantra and encourage others to do likewise. But I'm not one to take a vote. Facts are not determined by popularity. I am questioning:The validity of the "known problems"And IF they are valid, THEN I am questioning:The decision to put \Program Files\ in the installer.The very fact that \Program Files\ is in both installer options is a big part of what has me questioning the validity of the mantra. I'm giving Tannin42 and others involved the benefit of the doubt. I'm interested in past remarks, but this is an expansive forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmm200 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 As a long-time Vortex user, my Vortex program is always in c:\Program Files.I find that both appropriate and problem free.Now the default I do have problems with is either Downloads or Mod Staging going to AppData\Roaming. They are both too big to be on the C: drive, and no one looks in AppData.Obviously, Steam games should never be installed under Program Files. That is just asking for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nt5raham Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Obviously, Steam games should never be installed under Program Files. That is just asking for trouble.Please elaborate. What is "known" about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustaCalidia Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 (edited) @rmm200 Salve, amice! Why is it obvious that Steam games should never be installed under Program Files? It's not obvious to me. I've been installing Steam games in Program Files ever since I discovered Steam games, and my experience has been trouble free. In fact, all of my game loving friends and family do the same with the same happy results. I do not deny that others encounter real problems installing to Windows Program Files. However, I have never encountered such problems, and I'm not personally acquainted with anyone who has. Please understand that I am not trying to be contentious about this matter. I'm genuinely puzzled and curious as to why installing Steam games to Program Files is so problematic for some and not for others. Edited August 4, 2020 by AugustaCalidia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmm200 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Program File and Program Files (86) are Windows controlled directories. ACL is the mechanism, and the Trusted Installer has control. One example of going south is:https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/1ac44b5a-8439-4be5-80ce-ecd101fe7fa3/program-files-x86-restrictions-with-administrator?forum=win10itprosecurity A description of ACLs is:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access-control_list These directories are protected because they are vital to Windows operation. It is a very bad idea to open up the permissions - because you lose those protections.And in my case - I use a small boot SSD. No room on C: for big games. I even have Downloads and Documents redirected to a (much larger) SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution Tannin42 Posted August 4, 2020 Solution Share Posted August 4, 2020 There is a pattern how windows applications should be developed to provide a degree of "standardization" and this pattern has been established since Windows NT, 25 years ago. This pattern requires that "static" application files, that is: parts of the application that don't get changed outside installation/update should go to c:\program files and that the installation of software should only be done as administrator. The file permissions enforce that.Non-static application data that gets created or changed when you use the application should either go to AppData if the files are fully under control of the application or to the Documents directory if they are intended to be accessed directly by the user (e.g. with other applications or to be copied to different systems). Applications that follow this pattern have no problems:- they install correctly on a fresh windows and any windows that is correctly maintained- their data gets picked up by any reasonable backup software- they are much more secure- you can update the application without worrying that you may be overwriting/deleting any of the users data Vortex follows these guidelines so it's ok to be installed to Program Files. Steam doesn't and it's a bit of a mess, because apparently the Steam developers have learned programming in the 80s and refused to adapt to the operating system changing. The same is unfortunately true for some game devs. Most games nowadays however are developed "properly" It's just that when it comes to modding, we sometimes have to change files that were intended to be static by the game developers, hence having a game installed in c:\program files would be perfectly fine, but the moment you want to mod it you may have to overcome the file permissions on the directory. There are multiple ways to do that though. The worst is: Run as admin. Admin can write to anything so there is no problem but it's a massive security issue that no amount of AVs can fix.You can install the game to a directory that has no limits on the file permissions. That is the most convenient solution.Or you can install the game as intended but then change the permissions on the directories you have to edit. This would be the most professional approach. tl;dr: There is no general problem with having applications in Program Files, in fact they absolutely should be there, just when you do modding it may be more tedious if the game you're modding is in Program Files. And applications developed for Windows 98 and haven't been overhauled since, like Steam, should not be in Program Files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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