fear and loathing over government

[HeyYou]

Well on Monday the 4th of February the Hostage taker was put down by Law enforcement no details other then a Stun/flash grenade was used. The Boy was rescued and has been taken to a hospital for a check up and likely debriefed with the parents present.

 

What I think on the issue is how this person was even allowed to own a firearm after several firearm related incidents between him, and his neighbors and local law enforcement prior to this incident. Not to mention it was also reported that he had beaten one of the Neighbors dogs to death with a lead pipe when it gotten on to his property.

 

He didn't have sufficient criminal history to merit revoking his gun rights. (no felony convictions) Nor did he have any mental health history that was verifiable by any gun sellers, to preclude them from selling him a weapon. Not to mention no word on just how long he had owned his guns..... He was supposed to go to court last week for the firearm charges. (at least, the most recent ones.) Instead, he kidnapped a child...

 

In any event, the child is safe, he is dead, and this issue is solved.

[Werne]

He didn't have sufficient criminal history to merit revoking his gun rights. (no felony convictions) Nor did he have any mental health history that was verifiable by any gun sellers, to preclude them from selling him a weapon.

I guess US laws are different, in Croatia no veteran is able to buy/own a weapon (not even a slingshot) without passing extensive psychological exams to confirm he's not dangerous to anyone. If there's even a slightest possibility that he might have PTSD his weapons and licenses are immediately confiscated until he passes psychological evaluation. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a nasty thing and it's better to have guys with it under control than let them have a gun.

 

I had to take those tests when I came back from Afghanistan, even had to see a military psychologist for 3 months during which my weapons and gun licenses were confiscated and I was under surveillance to insure I don't get a firearm from somewhere. After one hell of an evaluation I got my guns back but they took away my carrying license and I've been restricted to use and store my guns only on the gun range, I must not, under any circumstances, carry them outside the range. And I've been deemed "safe" with only a light case of PTSD, anything more severe and I'd spend 6 months in a mental institution with my gun/drivers licenses revoked and my guns confiscated for good. http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/sad.gif

 

But now I derailed the topic so let's go back to whatever this thread is about.

 

What I don't understand is what does all this have to do with government, the guy snapped, killed a bus driver, kidnapped a kid and that's it. I can't find any mention of him being "fed up" with the government, only that he's anti-government (and who isn't http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/rolleyes.gif). In my opinion, kidnapping a kid is not the best way to show hatred for his government so I don't think that was his point. If he wanted to do damage he'd blow something up or mow down a bunch of people, something that has impact. This looks to me like he snapped before he killed the driver and when his brain kicked into gear, he kidnapped a kid thinking he could get away. A stupid move but panic makes people do stupid things so I'm not surprised, at least he had enough brains to hide somewhere where snipers can't get him.

 

Also, why did it take so long for them to kill him? I know he was hiding in a shelter but still, it shouldn't have taken that long. http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/confused.gif

[sukeban]

He didn't have sufficient criminal history to merit revoking his gun rights. (no felony convictions) Nor did he have any mental health history that was verifiable by any gun sellers, to preclude them from selling him a weapon.

I guess US laws are different, in Croatia no veteran is able to buy/own a weapon (not even a slingshot) without passing extensive psychological exams to confirm he's not dangerous to anyone. If there's even a slightest possibility that he might have PTSD his weapons and licenses are immediately confiscated until he passes psychological evaluation. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a nasty thing and it's better to have guys with it under control than let them have a gun.

 

I had to take those tests when I came back from Afghanistan, even had to see a military psychologist for 3 months during which my weapons and gun licenses were confiscated and I was under surveillance to insure I don't get a firearm from somewhere. After one hell of an evaluation I got my guns back but they took away my carrying license and I've been restricted to use and store my guns only on the gun range, I must not, under any circumstances, carry them outside the range. And I've been deemed "safe" with only a light case of PTSD, anything more severe and I'd spend 6 months in a mental institution with my gun/drivers licenses revoked and my guns confiscated for good. http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/sad.gif

 

But now I derailed the topic so let's go back to whatever this thread is about.

 

What I don't understand is what does all this have to do with government, the guy snapped, killed a bus driver, kidnapped a kid and that's it. I can't find any mention of him being "fed up" with the government, only that he's anti-government (and who isn't http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/rolleyes.gif). In my opinion, kidnapping a kid is not the best way to show hatred for his government so I don't think that was his point. If he wanted to do damage he'd blow something up or mow down a bunch of people, something that has impact. This looks to me like he snapped before he killed the driver and when his brain kicked into gear, he kidnapped a kid thinking he could get away. A stupid move but panic makes people do stupid things so I'm not surprised, at least he had enough brains to hide somewhere where snipers can't get him.

 

Also, why did it take so long for them to kill him? I know he was hiding in a shelter but still, it shouldn't have taken that long. http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/confused.gif

 

I heard that they duped him into opening the door then they set off a flashbang and he reached for his gun. When he did that (and maybe they would have done it in any event) they shot him. The report said that the FBI had snuck a small camera into the bunker and had decided to make the move after he became increasingly unstable and started brandishing the gun at the kid.

 

I also heard that he was due in court on some firearms charges that week, which is most likely the catalytic event that he was so immediately bent over. He probably chose the bus driver because some level of government (unless it was a private school!) operated it and likely because he was a coward and thought it was an easy target. At first I thought maybe he wanted to abduct a non-white child or something like that, and then I thought that he might have been a pedophile, but I suppose we will never know for sure why he did it. Probably they'll just find a stash of "Soldier of Fortune" magazines and an internet history full of World Net Daily and/or Stormfront visits.

 

Anyway, I don't think that military veterans (or SWAT, FBI, etc.) are very likely to do things like this, but Croatia's approach regarding securing their weapons sounds sensible all the same. TBH, veterans, on balance, are probably far less likely to do crazy things since they likely respect both weapons and human life more than the a person who has never served. But it is good policy, since a highly trained veteran with severe trauma would be a far more dangerous adversary than some teenager who learned everything they "know" about guns from Call of Duty.

Edited February 5, 2013 by sukeban

[colourwheel]

I have too say this has been a very unusual event that is slowly unfolding.

 

To be quite honest, to a very specific degree, I feel the root to a situation like this to blame is very extreme right-wing media. You have people like rush limbaugh and glenn beck who are always selling the public a reason to hate and fear the government. Their sponsors and main set of advertisement income comes from advocating and selling apocalyptic survival gear and over priced gold coins. People could argue mental health is an issue but to everyones knowledge the man had no sign of ever being this mentally unstable. This brings up the arguement of recent events of people being involved in acts of terror of an imminent threat to defualt their civil liberties at the cost of protecting the public of our nation.

 

People have recently being arguing about the controversial use of drone strikes to kill U.S. citizens without any intent of civil due process. Maybe this was what this person was tryng to prove or make a statement about. Considering the FBI is still probably at this very moment carefulling inspecting every inch of the mans property for explosives or leathal traps.

 

It would be interesting to see this story reach the light of day in this new political controversy over the debate of civil liberties and drone strikes on U.S. citizens.

Edited February 6, 2013 by colourwheel

[JimboUK]

The only person at fault here is the nut with the gun.

[colourwheel]

The only person at fault here is the nut with the gun.

 

But you have to ask yourself what drove him to become such a nut? Was it really the government? Is the government to blame for neglect of a vietnam vet or person who was not taken care of by the government that did not care for him after his service? or what do you think drove him to do this?

Edited February 6, 2013 by colourwheel

[kvnchrist]

From all accounts I've heard the guy was a consummate jerk. He killed a neighbor's dog with a pipe and threatened just about everyone around him.

 

I don't necessarily see a anti anything guy. I see somebody that thought only about himself and took drastic measures to get the attention and recognition he thought he deserved. I can see no other reason in the world for this type of behavior since no one was taking anything from him and he wasn't on anyone's radar until he acted out this little scenario.

 

Of course Timothy Mc Vey was never on anyone's radar screen either, but he had traceable ties to militia groups . The one thing about Mc Vey was he never showed emotion at any time all the way through his trial and even up to the time he was executed.I don't think you can say this bunker guy didn't show emotion. More like too much emotion and Mc Vey Assaulted a government building and the people inside were secondary. This guy went after a school bus to get a hostage to hold that would bring attention to himself. I don't see any statement in that other than. "Screw you this is all about me and you are going to listen to me. "

 

All this, "he's and anti government conservative wack job is simply more partisan rhetoric which is exactly what this country doesn't need any more of. It's fractured enough as it is and to continue such unsubstantiated statements only fuels the fire that this country is burning in.

 

This is not about God, guns or country. In my opinion it was about a self destructive person who pushed everybody away and then hated the fact that no on paid attention to him, so he got that attention. I'm just glad that it ended with that child not being laid to rest like the heroic bus driver who was the only real trajedy in this entire fiascal.

 

The problem with this is the problem with us as a country. We tend not to get involved in situations until it is too late. We simply don't want to get evolved and by our own inaction we allow these people to exhibit wildly crazy activities that go unreported. this guy, everybody knew was crazy as a bed bug. Infact if you look back at all these gun tragedies you will see a pattern of action by every one of these perpetrators. They all acted cravy and people just looked the other way. That is up until their craziness intersected with the ability to posses firearms and then lives were lost.

 

Shouldn't we be doing the same thing with everybody that the government asked us to do with foreigners after 9/11? Shouldn't we be reporting strange behavior so we can identify this lunatics before they act.?

 

NO it's best not to get involved. Yeah, right! Sarcasm alert,,,,,Woop, Woop!

[JimboUK]

The only person at fault here is the nut with the gun.

 

But you have to ask yourself what drove him to become such a nut? Was it really the government? Is the government to blame for neglect of a vietnam vet or person who was not taken care of by the government that did not care for him after his service? or what do you think drove him to do this?

 

Some people are just nuts, you can't blame other people for his actions. You and I are both exposed to the same media that he was (yes we have our own Becks on this side of the pond) yet we don't go around murdering people, the difference is we're not crazy, he evidently was. When you start to blame people opposed to government for the actions of others you give reason to shut them up, that is the top of a very dangerous slippery slope. Government should always be questioned and yes, opposed when they forget their place. Opposition keeps a government on it's toes, no or poor opposition leads to poor government.

[Beriallord]

The guy was clearly a nut job that went postal. It happens. I hope the kid is safe and isn't being abused.

 

As far as government goes, I got zero trust + complete lack of confidence in them to solve anything responsibly. They lie to me on a regular basis, and prove time and time again they are inept at solving problems with simple common sense solutions. I don't believe in compromising if I believe the other side is woefully wrong in every single category. I consider the willingness to compromise a weakness. I'd rather they stay completely partisan grid locked, permanently than take is down the path we're going.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Beriallord

[JimboUK]

 

 

Shouldn't we be doing the same thing with everybody that the government asked us to do with foreigners after 9/11? Shouldn't we be reporting strange behavior so we can identify this lunatics before they act.?

 

 

 

What do you when you identify someone as being "strange"? you can't start locking people up for what they might do unless they're certifiable. The thought of people reporting their friends and neighbours for acting differently is frightening, it's reminiscent of the old East Germany. People need to accept that these things happen, we can't create a perfectly safe society that is also free, the result of watching and controlling people is a police state.