How can anybody srsly play as a Vampire Hunter?

[avallanche]

Particularly I don't think that the linearity of the quest is the main problem... there are reasons for that... what bugs me is the very few option of lines you have.

A little more development on the initial conversation, a few more options of confrontation and anyone could create its own reasons to keep doing so... but the simple "sure, I will deliver you and the Elder Scroll to your dad, no questions asked" is a little too much.

I mean... you create your own reasons but a conversation loop that ends up with the same result but with at least a hint of a reason for a vampire hunter doing it would definitely reduce the number of complains. At the end of the DLC you are asked why you are helping her and you have different options of response. Virtually it makes no difference but at least you can choose an option that better fits the character. Its a little detail with no real practical implications, but it makes a difference and that is what the initial conversation lacks, even with the linear questline. I can live with that but i can also understand the ones who cant.

Edited March 23, 2015 by avallanche

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Particularly I don't think that the linearity of the quest is the main problem... there are reasons for that... what bugs me is the very few option of lines you have.

 

 

The linearity of the quest is the actual problem because, without delving into behavior that is outside normal motivations and/or typical, there would be no dialogue option(s) to reasonably explain why a vampire hunter would escort her to scratch that, inside a vampire lair full of vampires with what may be the most powerful thing known to mortal and immortal kind on her back.

 

Now some tried to argue that the kill all vampire mentality is unrealistic and that people would possess a more complex outlook but I feel there is enough to support that being an incorrect notion... BUT let's assume that argument valid.

 

A vampire hunter trusting a vampire they just found in a crypt? Maybe. Trusting vampires enough to where they'll also trust these other vampires they've never met? Ehhhh. Escorting this vampire to scratch that again, inside a den of vampires alone to where they will be at an absolute and complete disadvantage? Only if they're are stupid, powerful, or both but typically? No.

 

Then the whole vampire side of things. Let's ignore the fact that the Dawnguard automatically trust you so much that they send you to do something alone without even checking to see if you're a vampire (meaning as a vampire they still send you to do this thing for them), but there is no probable reason that as a vampire, you should have to go through the Dawnguard in order to join Harkon.

 

So simply adding dialogue, while capable of fixing many issues, wouldn't fix much of anything in this case.

 

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But the answers could have been simple as they could have used tactics they've already used for other things.

 

For example, if you're already a vampire, a forcegreet by one of Harkon's people at night where he or she tries to recruit you... or hell, even if you're human, he or she can try to feed on you the next time you sleep at which point you fight them and should you beat them they try to recruit you as you've proven formidable and worthy of an audience with Harkon.

 

If you make it to where you can either agree to this or finish this recruiter off, you now have a better introduction that makes more sense and cater to just about any kind of character and it basically uses a similar format to the Darkbrotherhood story line.

 

The above was too hard for them to do? I don't think so. They just took a lazy approach to starting this particular DLC.

[avallanche]

If we could have a much more open game full of possibilities, it would be great. I'm not arguing about that. But unfortunately all games still suffer from real world limitations... time, money, engine capacity. Not even Fallout has that many quests with alternative methods. As I said, it has its reasons... its not for the best but I understand why they did it.

While I agree with you that they could have implemented this alternative methode, keep in mind that Skyrim is a lot more closed in this aspect with forced choices imposed upon you all the time. Usually you only have the option to do something or quit the quest. You can become a werewolf or quit the companions questline, you can obey the Daedric Princes or quit their questline, you can kill Pharthurnax or quit the Blades questline, you have to be a lackey to Maven of quit the thieves guild questline, and so on... and even when they do gives you an option like with the Dark Brotherhood that you mentioned, they only untagged their essential status... there is no real development whatsoever.

I not only agree with you that kill on sight is a valid perspective for a vampire hunter, I also think its a genuine roleplay style. Creating an obsessed, almost rageblinded char is a valid possibility, but than again we stumble on real world limitations of the game. And for me the easiest, cheapest and not time consuming way to do it was really by adding a couple of lines that at least justified this forced choice. As I said a few pages before, the fact that so many NPCs are still tagged as essential even after you complete the questline is really more game-breaking to me than the questline itself.

Edited March 23, 2015 by avallanche

[itsbuffy]

I always had that issue as a vampire hunter. I mean letting her live is one thing. She seem friendly and so you might argue that your char would let her live. she's also attractive and is willing to lead you to a vampire lair so I guess it's fine I can deal with that.

 

But letting her get away with the elder scroll is a completly other matter. No way any Vampire hunters would let a vampire get away alive with an elder scroll because ''it's hers'' especially when it would be super easy to take it away.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

My suggestions are taking into account real world limitations. Adding a single NPC with forcegreet shouldn't be that time, money and or engine capacity consuming. Like I said, the resources and quest style already exist in the game.

 

Actullay, come to think of it they wouldn't have even need to add a new NPC. You can take one of the already existing NPCs that are a member of Harkon's faction and add a similar package to them that Durak has.

 

The examples you give do make sense, but they don't apply here. This is merely referring to how a quest starts AND involves two warring sides. Two sides, basically means at the very least two different ways to get involved in which case Skyrim does typically satisfy that.

 

Not to mention that even in the Darkbrotherhood quest where there are two sides (although this isn't obvious at first) you aren't sent on any missions by one side and that is the only way to join the other side. No, you either kill Astrid and you're an enemy of the Darknrotherhood or you pass her test without killing her and then you're a member of the Darkbrotherhood.

 

Oh and avallanche, could you give me some dialogue examples? Maybe if you gave me some examples of the dialogue that could be added to make the intro work, it would help me to understand your point of view.

 

It's the same with the civil war, you don't have to do a quest for one in order to join the other.

 

Also, just because someone has a kill all vampire mentality doesn't mean they must/have to be rageblinded. I'd imagine many a real life farmer would kill a wolf they encounter on their land without second thought. It isn't malice and it isn't because they believe all wolves want to kill and eat their sheep and or chickens, but they'd rather not take that chance.

 

For others, it has to do with the old Aesop fable(not sure if is Aesop or not) (not to mention other tales, stories, sayings, etc) where the scoprion stings the frog and they both die or the other one where a farmer takes pity on the snake freezing to death outside and when it warms up it bites and kills him. You have a being that is faster than humans, stronger than humans, and possess a greater power in the dark arts. That alone would have some non blindly hating people wanting to kill them but add to the fact that they hunt humans. For some people it would just be plain logical.

 

Not saying they are right, just saying they aren't wrong either... oh and saying that while the rageblinded ones would exist, not all kill'em all vampire hunters they have to be rageblinded vampire hunters.

[avallanche]

I'm not arguing with you. I actually agree with most of what you are saying... i'm just saying that since they are going for a linear questline, for whatever reasons they had, they could at least gives you a reason to do so.
I dont know what lines... something to confront her, to tell that you will not allow her to just walk away with an ES or something, in which she appoints the obvious fact that is something bigger going on... some kind of discussion, some threats, anything so you could roleplay on it with any build. Makes virtually no difference but at least gives you a ingame reason to do so. Any chance of confrontation instead of just agreeing to be her guard dog for absolutely no reason,even if the outcome is the same. I know you dont actually need thoses lines to do this but an ingame base is important in this kind of game.

Also the rageblinded example was just the other extreme of the example that already had been given on the topic. You can roleplay as anything you want, the rageblinded, the extreme analitic or anything in betwen... thats the point.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Unfortunately, liking or not, there is not much we can do about it.

[TheVampireDante]

You were sent on a recon mission really, find out what the vampires were looking for, and to gather information - which you got.

 

1. Serana found and wakes up - you want to know why she was locked up, it might be important - especially since she was being looked for.

 

2. Helping her out and taking her home - you've now located and sucessfully assessed the oppositions numbers and potential strength.

 

3. The scroll - depending on when you start dawnguard - the scroll with either mean nothing to you but a name, or you've learned that they are important and tend to find their own way in things.

 

Yes, it's forced, but an alternative would be to mod in a set of discussion topics that that allow you to refuse guilding her, and then she vanishes on her own only to reappear later at the dawnguard fort looking for you.

Only problem would be unvoiced speech, unless you find a good imitator for Serana's part, or put something together from her existing material.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I was just trying to get an idea on what sort of lines you thought would work to do what you think is best is all. I couldn't really think of any but that didn't mean they didn't exist, but it sounded like you were saying add dialogue to at least explain why we were going along with it. I agree that would be the least costly way to go about it, but I didn't think my suggestion was much more costly to that.

 

And you're right, aside from modding it, there isn't much we can do, I was just defending my point that I felt that the reason it wasn't done at least a touch better was due to laziness rather than inability and or real world limitations.

[KanesGhost]

Personally I would gladly accept unvoiced dialog if it gave me real options in dealing with Serana... I think for Vamp Hunters who choose not to trust Serana (I still can't understand how quickly and easily people choose to trust her), what could be a viable option would be an aggressive stance towards Serana and she needs to flee for her life and the Gargoyles there are re-set to attack only the Dragonborn and any Followers he may have, letting Serana pass by them safely, once she is out of sight of the player she is transported to a waiting cell until queue time for her to appear at Fort Dawnguard, with silent dialog added in interaction at Fort Dawnguard also to reflect what took place at the Crypt.

 

Or alternatively, the Dragonborn takes her to Fort Dawnguard instead of the Vamp Castle and Serana is interrogated, etc... by Isran and Co. with Isran finally ordering the Dragonborn to escort Serana to the Vamp Castle, Isran having decided the risk of letting one Vamp go is worth the chance on the information he has recieved from her. Though the Elder Scroll becomes a problem with this second scenerio, the Dragonborn may or may not know what it is Serana carries on her back (mine never do, never gotten far enough into the MQ by then to have come across one or know what one looks like), but what it is would by all rights be discovered under interrogation... so I'm a bit stuck on why Isran would let her walk with an Elder Scroll.

 

As for Obstinate Novice's thoughts, I hadn't thought of the Dawnguard from a Vamps perspective (am always a Werewolf or Human)... You have raised some very good points, the question now is how could such a scenerio be Modded? As the train has left the station in regards to the Dawnguard, I agree 100% the writing is shoddy, I think Bethesda was relying on their Serana creation being loved by all to be honest...And so what can potentially be done by the Modding Community to incorporate such a scenerio as you have put forward?

[kimmera]

Has anyone considered that it is not just the Dragonborn being an idiot on meeting her? You open up the cell she has voluntarily entered that her mom set up to save her from her father, she realizes that she has been in there for thousands of years, and the first thing she wants to do is go to the family home, where her father likely is, without any prior investigation or even making any effort to hide the Elder Scroll on the way?

 

She doesn't want to risk telling the Dragonborn of any of the plot because she isn't sure she can trust him but is quite happy to run to the arms of he father, whom she knows she can't trust?

 

The only way that would make any sense would be if she was deliberately bringing him the wrong Elder Scroll, one that would destroy him if he learned to read it or something....