Stormcloaks and Nazi Germany

[deadlyillness]

Ulfric is more like a William Wallace character than anything else. He is very educated, born from, and wants his homeland to be independent from another nation, has strong patriotism to his culture and country (which Skyrim's culture seems more like Scotland to me than a Scandinavian culture, especially the Nord race's lore and fighting style). If we ignore Braveheart, as there are things that Hollywood changes... In addition, Wallace likely would have wanted to compete for Scotland's throne. However, we know that Wallace didn't limit himself to the "rules" of warfare at the time. At the battle of Stirling Bridge, Wallace exploit the narrow bridge to the Englishmen's dismay and attacked them before they crossed the bridge.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Wallace works better than Churchill. Good call.

[NemesisTheWarlock]

You have to also take into account what Ulfric has been through, he's never going to be normal. As for his being power hungry, he's a Nord, he knows the legends, he makes no attempt whatsoever to dispose of the Dragonborn, the very obvious biggest obstacle to his being the supreme power in Skyrim. Doesn't really gel for me. I think he wants vengeance against the Aldmeri at any cost and will work with anyone and accept any political ally to that goal. Hence he's a ruthless extremist but not necessarily a racist, after all, he doesn't even care if the Dragonborn is a high elf!

[MasterAub]

Lisnpuppy, on 21 Mar 2013 - 02:16, said:

I see Ulfric more like perhaps a more competent Vercingetorix, who for a short time united the Celtic Germanic tribes against Julius Caesar than Hitler.

Be careful here Vercingetorix united not only the Celtic Germany but try to unite all of the Celtic Tribes regardless of their origins. The characteristic of the Celtics were indeed to be a multi-cultural community at list from an origin perspective even though their multi-origin and multi ethnic background eventually formed a Celtic culture.

Moreover they were known of being curious of others culture. (Travel note from Caesar itself attest that).

In the game the resemblance of this historical period of Europe lies more in the lore (Empire = Roman and Nord = Celtic), the way they dress, their weaponry, their homes ...rather than their political / racial agenda.

 

My 2 cents of course

Edited March 22, 2013 by MasterAub

[moxrox]

 

SnowElfPrince, on 21 Mar 2013 - 02:26, said:

This is mainly just me seeing if anyone else sees the similarities. For example:

• Both have greatly charismatic leaders
• Both wanted a unified or better race in their country
• Both leader used politicians to get to where they are and then turned their back on them (Ulfric is power hungry and pretty much just appoints Jarls so that they will elect him and Hitler got elected president and then turned it into a Dictatorship)
• Both used 'false advertising' to get the wars started (Ulfric with Talos and Hitler with brining glory to Germany)
• Both turned their followers into extreme racists who wished harm upon everyone who they though was below them

There are probably more and some might be a stretch. However I felt like sharing this because it kind of just clicked with me, and I know there is always the conflict of Imperials or Stormcloaks which is good and which is bad. So mainly just wandering what everyone's' thoughts are on this...

Allegedly, parts of the background story is taken from the Irish Revolution ~1920.

 

The racist part of the Stormcloaks reminds me more on the United States until the 60ies in the last century when they had a similar apartheid like in southafrica with major state racism and even this was more severe than how the Stormcloaks are doing.

 

The nazis were not just racists they actually mass murdered people which did not fit in their concept of supremacy/master race and worldview, the supremacy reminds me more on the Thalmor. But even the supremacy of a race did happen in the colonial era. White supremacy with their racial theory and the idea of a master race/eugenics were widespread in many nations since the 19th century. Google for "de Gobineau"

Edited March 22, 2013 by moxrox

[Jack012jackjack]

Surely all these comparisons are too modern, most of the time the mentality and setting seem to barely get up to what you'd expect of Romans and the barbarians..

[Deleted472477User]

Given that both groups had strong ideas of who they thought should be allowed to continue to exist, I would say that the Thalmor are more like Nazi Germany than the Stormcloaks.

[ilikecheese1337]

The Aldmeri Dominion is the closest thing to Nazi Germany in TES. Come on, they have secret police (Thalmor), religious persecution, black clothing, and philosophy of racial superiority.

 

Sure, they don't have the single charismatic leader, but that's what makes them so dangerous - they're ordinary people with delusions of grandeur, a strong perceived division between themselves and other groups, corrupt officials telling them to commit atrocities and are told it's all "for the greater good" (that is, unmaking reality) and religion thrown into the mix. It's like a melting pot of all the reasons ordinary people do evil, only with omnicidal elves.

 

Ulfric Stormcloak is all right as leaders go, but he's cripplingly myopic and, while not himself overly racist, doesn't exactly do much to stop the culture of racism growing amongst the Stormcloaks. That said, an elven Dragonborn liberating Skyrim for the Stormcloaks might go some considerable way towards combating that. Skyrim alone almost certainly couldn't take down the Dominion, unless Dovahkiin rallied the dragons (you are technically the new Alduin), but even then you're talking enormous collateral damage on both sides.

 

The Empire is also problematic. It's slowly dying and taking the rest of Tamriel, maybe eventually all of Nirn, with it - Imperial supporters talk about building up the strength to fight the Dominion again, but the fact is that the Dominion is strengthening faster than the Empire is recovering. By going along with the Dominion, the Empire is only buying time at the cost of no hope of ever fighting back.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

Lisnpuppy, on 21 Mar 2013 - 02:16, said:

I see Ulfric more like perhaps a more competent Vercingetorix, who for a short time united the Celtic Germanic tribes against Julius Caesar than Hitler.

Be careful here Vercingetorix united not only the Celtic Germany but try to unite all of the Celtic Tribes regardless of their origins. The characteristic of the Celtics were indeed to be a multi-cultural community at list from an origin perspective even though their multi-origin and multi ethnic background eventually formed a Celtic culture.

Moreover they were known of being curious of others culture. (Travel note from Caesar itself attest that).

In the game the resemblance of this historical period of Europe lies more in the lore (Empire = Roman and Nord = Celtic), the way they dress, their weaponry, their homes ...rather than their political / racial agenda.

 

My 2 cents of course

I know very well exactly who and what he was. Caesar made little difference of the Celtics and Germanic tribes that all co-existed throughout the areas thinking of them as barbarians (he only showed them as more when it was convenient for him to make it so) but if you must insist then I will say the "Gallic" tribes, though at the end as you suggest there was a mufti-cultural group that included Gauls, Germanic tribes and many others.

 

And you will note I did not make hard and fast comparison, but said "I see him more like..." Unfortunately history has shown that Vercingetorix's hold on the Celtic tribes (et al) would most likely have shattered regardless of the outcome, though I do not dispute the amazing things he was able to do. Also we must take in stride what we know of the man, as almost all of it comes from Caesar himself who like many, is not above making his enemies seem much more than they actually may have been.

 

My point of course was that Ulfric is not like Hitler.

 

Also, though the OP has invited the direct comparison....I wonder if some of you know of any other that the Nazi's. Racism, secret police, charismatic leaders...these things have been part of many "empires" not just that of Nazi Germany. I would love too see some of you find other comparisons and see how they stand up.

[Relativelybest]

Come on, they have secret police (Thalmor),

 

Nitpick: The Thalmor isn't the secret police, it's their actual goverment.

 

The word "Thalmor" is actually used pretty much the same way as "Nazi."