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Wanted: NMM Testers and Focus Group


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#61
cjgarner

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I love NMM. I have found ways to get it to do what I want 99% of the time.
But it would be nice to have 2 things added that are missing.
1 - Is a way to make a default download folder or an easy way to pick were to download file vs hunting for the file NMM downloaded out of my 320 mods I use in my skyrim lol
2 - Is to have an uninstall all installed mods button! vs Having to uninstall each 1 by 1.
Even just being able to shift click a group to uninstall vs doing each one would be loads better =)


#62
FMPhoenixHawk

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In response to post #36932180.


Spoiler

Actually, there is a way to do the second. Under the Tools menu, you can Disable all Active Mods or Uninstall All active mods.

#63
bubinga64

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Hats off to any and all that apply!

Question is, is there a way to donate DIRECTLY to the team that is testing all of this in their spare time?

It's basically asking for alpha testers that are willing to test the software and mess up saves. Judging by the fact that the SkyUI team won't come back I'm guessing people don't donate very often, but it would be nice if there was a way to help the people that are helping us.

Just my thoughts...

#64
bubinga64

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In response to post #36910965. #36911220, #36923925, #36926780, #36929315, #36931910 are all replies on the same post.


Spoiler

I'd like to share something my mother always used to say (God bless her soul).

"Never argue with and idiot. Most people happening by won't be able to tell the difference."

Take that how you will. I've found it handy on many occasions.

#65
prinyo

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 [...] Considering that using profiles in the new build of NMM (0.60 onwards) is completely optional [...]

 

 

 

This is NOT true  and this misconception is the main reason for most of the misunderstandings and miscommunication in the forum.

 

Before I go further I want to say that I use NMM to mod all my games and that my only motivation is to help make it better. I'm a developer/programmer in real life and in my posts I'm commenting on the software itself and it's usability and nothing more. I'm not interested in flame wars, I'm not a "hater", I'm not a "fan-boy",  I'm not interested in anything else but to discuss the facts - objective, measurable facts and their impact on the users, including myself. With the only motivation that I need/want to use a reliable, predictable, stable and usable mod manager. 

 

By definition an optional feature is one that the user can choose to activate or not and to use or not. The user can opt-in or opt-out of it.

 

The profiles are incorporated in the latest NMM versions (post 0.60) as a mandatory, core functionality.

 

1. There was no option to not activate them.

Many users payed tens of hours and lost custom changes in dealing with this activation (complete reinstall of all mods from scratch that in many cases led to complete reinstall of the games themselves). There was (is) no option to chose to not use profiles and have NMM work as normal. 

 

2. There is no opt-in

It is pretty straight-forward - you need to accept using the profiles if you want to use the next versions and mod the games that are yet to be released. The way it was communicated was actually quite simple - you need to activate and use the profiles if you want to mod Fallout 4. 

 

3. There is no opt-out

You can't turn off the profiles. Even if you never create a profile yourself you are still using a profile - the one the software created for you by default. You can not opt-out of the profiles and the VirtualInstall setup.

Even when it makes it impossible to backup your game when using an SDD (trying to use the backup actually doubles the space the game uses because the symlinks are copied as real files). You can not turn off the profiles and the VirtualInstall setup even if this adds additional layer of complication when trying to create a new mod. You can not turn off the profiles and the VirtualInstall setup for whatever reason you don't want want to use this feature and keep the software working the way it was before. As any optional feature would allow.

 

So you can't choose to not activate the profiles, you don't opt-in and you can't opt out. Want them or not - you are going to need to use them.

 

 

Why is this relevant now?

 

1. It was unexpected

I did read the red warning when I upgraded. I also did read the whole text. Including the part where it promised me it will only take 5 minutes. And my programmer mind calculated that nothing should go wrong, Because:

A. It has the source archives of all my mods in it's "mods" folder 

B. It knows the order the mods were installed

C. The pre-0.60 versions weren't that slow so there was no way to predict how long it would take

So I thought "OK, by the time I go to the shop it will be done. Nothing can go wrong." And clicked Yes...

 

Several hours later the result was half-installed mods in completely random order. I was actually amazed that a software can produce so much chaos. The whole weekend after that was spent in reinstalling games and mods. 

 

2. It was and still is dangerously broken

I have filed several bug reports about how dangerous using the profiles actually is. So far I don't think they have been addressed. NMM keeps randomly adding or removing mods from the profiles and if it crashes while switching profiles then it can "forget" tens of mods belonging to a profile. Actually using the profiles is still a gamble - the game might start after you switch profiles but it might crash as well. 

 

3. Insult to injury

I keep reading, even in this thread, that it's user's fault if they had problems with the 0.61 update. They should learn to read...

For example, just several posts above this one:

" I also encouraged people to read the release notes and any warnings prior to clicking "next" continuously on future updates until the update process is finished without reading anything."

This is somewhat offensive because:

A. There were no details about the update in the dialog window on the old version that was telling you to download the new one. It simply said - there is a new version, you need to upgrade. That's all.

B. The warning in red about the mod reinstall was shown when it was already too late. I actually killed the install when I first read it and spent 30 minutes trying to find an older version to download, but could not. It turned out the link is hidden under a spoiler tag... I expected when the software presents such an important choice to give you options to easily go both ways. It did not.

C. The warning message was actually quite reassuring - we know what we are doing and in 5 minutes your mods will be reinstalled and there is no need to worry.

 

So I was trapped into upgrading to the profiles feature, I was not given a way to postpone it, I was told it would only take 5 minutes, I was warned that there will be no further updates if I don't accept... and now it is all my fault - apparently I can't read....

 

 

4. And apparently this is still an issue

Months after all this happened there is still a lot of finger pointing going on. Nexus says "We are developing a cool new feature". An user replies "Oh, God, not again..." And Nexus is upset... 

 

And I'm sitting here thinking "The users and Nexus want one and the same thing - a nice, useful, stable and user-friendly manager". Why can't they work together?

Yes, there are trolls and flame wars in the forums but there are also people who genuinely want to help. What is the point to further the divide? Is it really that hard to work together?



#66
LoganWolverine

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In response to post #36934810.


Spoiler

Good of you, for saying all this about their new stuff, I myself spent a couple of days having to redownload and reinstall everything all over again. Lucky for me I had a copy of NMM 0.56.1, That's what I will stick with. It ask me every time do I want to install the new one and I say Hell No!!!!! LOL. Not only did I not like the All in Profiling thing, but as a creator of mods I found that all of a sudden the creation kit couldn't find anything, I later found out that it was because of the way the profiling system had set everything up and then left I forget what they are called right off hand but they were some kind of funky links. This caused all kinds of headaches for me til I figured it all out and got rid of the new NMM and reinstalled the older one and life has been good for me with it. So lesson learned the hard way for me but til like you said the developers start listening to the users and take into account that not everyone want to use profiles and that everything that is developed should be with the mindset that not everyone that uses this software will want that function, then their developing for a single interest group and not for the public at large. I don't say all this as a hater thing either, I'm one of those old timey gamers and I have my training in the computer world as well.

#67
Dark0ne

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In response to post #36934810. #36941220 is also a reply to the same post.


Spoiler

[...] Considering that using profiles in the new build of NMM (0.60 onwards) is completely optional [...]

This is NOT true and this misconception is the main reason for most of the misunderstandings and miscommunication in the forum.




Indeed, I should have prefaced this or clarified this more when I said it.

What I meant, and what I should have said, was once 0.60 is installed, using the profile functionality within NMM is completely optional. Yes, it changes the installation method of mods to use our virtualised system, something which is separate from profiles, but you can use 0.60+ without ever creating or interacting with the profile functionality within NMM.

That is what was meant when I said that using profiles is completely optional, e.g. you don't need to be there, making lots of different profiles, switching between them all the time. Your post goes off on a tangent based around a meaning of "optional" I did not intend to put forward, so I'm not going to argue most of your points simply because I know what you're telling me already.

We did force the profile build on people. Very much so. Based around a conscious choice that maintaining two different installation methods in NMM was too much for our very small team of two coders. Sacrifices had to be made. As we saw more advantages to the profile build for the future we went that route, and ultimately, some people didn't like that route that we took. Understandable really. Not everyone was going to like it. It's why we've left 0.56.1 active and still functional with our web services, and likely why we'll also go back and update 0.56.1 if we ever need to change the web services that would normally make old versions incapable of logging in/downloading/interacting with our web servers. Because we know some people stayed behind.

NOTE: all of this was clarified the day after the release of 0.60 in a second news post where I covered a lot of points, most of which you've discussed again above. So this does feel like we're going over 6 month old ground, here.

Having said that, this month, over 500,000 people are now using the 0.60+ build, and only 4,600 people are using the 0.56.1 build. In percentage terms, across all the builds people use, builds 0.56.1 or lower account for about 1.5% of all NMM users. Some of that 1.5% will be MO users, as they clone the NMM version numbers in the settings to use the web services.

Our initial confidence in build 0.60 was based around internal testing of a very small group where we found no issues, and it worked very well. Once we realised there were some major issues, changes were made in our tone to shift from "everyone should install it" to "we recommend sticking with an old version if you don't want to risk having to reinstall all your mods again". We won't make that mistake with a major release again.

Similarly, we updated the wording in all the builds of NMM from 0.60.1 onward so it sounded less sure of itself, mentioning that it might not work for everyone and it might require manual work on the user's part.

Lastly, we changed the update mechanism to display the change log in the update window, so you can see the changes in the new version you're being offered to install.

Indeed, here we are, discussing this issue from 6 months ago in a news post that is the proof of us learning from the issues with the 0.60 release. We're setting up a dedicated focus group of willing volunteers that can help us with our tests of major releases. So really...the proof is in the pudding. We've learnt from the 0.60 issues and we're taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Edited by Dark0ne, 23 April 2016 - 10:37 am.


#68
madwolf2006

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hi
the ability to backup a mod profile sounds interesting BUT this will not work withe older games i use a lot of mods for FO3 FONV that have scripted installers that fail to install using NMM so i use FOMM - Fork
and what about mods what where not downloaded form the nexusmods but install using NMM ?





#69
YeiZoneX

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I would gladly help if it was written in C++, but unfortunately my C# is not the very best.

#70
ff7legend

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In NMM 0.60.5+, there is a nasty bug that causes NMM to throw the following error: "Failure - Could not delete mod" with no further explanation or tracelog.txt file. I've reported this to the programmers & they can't seem to fix it. In the Forums under Bug Reports, it's even listed as a Hot topic seeing as how several other users are having this same issue. The error/bug comes from the addition of the "Delete Mod Permanently & Uninstall" option that was added in NMM version 0.60.5+. Anytime this option is selected, the aforementioned error message has a chance to pop up, forcing me to navigate to the Games/NMM/Skyrim/Mods folder & delete the mod manually, which then prompts NMM to throw a message saying there are missing mod files. Of course this is due to my manually removing a mod from the above directory but what choice do I have when NMM won't uninstall mods properly half the time? This needs to be fixed at some point. Also, the newer versions of NMM take an eternity to install larger mod files at times. Yet another issue that needs to be fixed at some point. I have Windows 7 Professional x64 with 64 GB DDR4 RAM in my machine & it should not take up to half an hour to install a mod using NMM on a machine with that much RAM in it. Maybe you all should consider releasing an x64 version of NMM for those of us with x64 OSes? Other than that, the newer versions of NMM seem to be working as intended.

Edited by ff7legend, 23 April 2016 - 04:57 pm.





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