Feature Request: Manual Load Order Sort.

[IKobi]

Vortex already supports manual sort order, however it is extremely frustrating and tiresome to use compared to other Mod Managers.

 

People will have you believe load order doesn't matter just to defend Vortex, however if that was any bit truth, we wouldn't have LOOT in the first place, nor would Vortex try to sort the MODs. Would love to watch those guys play with a Master like USSEP at the end of their load order (since they claim the order doesn't matter).

 

Fact is I've seen Vortex load patches before the mods they supposed to patch, load dependencies after the mods that need them, and etc. I pitty anyone who relies on automatic sorting from Vortex cause it's plain awful (I even have my doubts it uses LOOT at all).

 

No sane person with more than 50 MODs in Skyrim (or other game sensible to load order) will ever use Vortex, there's a reason most people use MO2, no offense of course.

Edited May 11, 2019 by JoseSnake

[HadToRegister]

Vortex already supports manual sort order, however it is extremely frustrating and tiresome to use compared to other Mod Managers.

 

People will have you believe load order doesn't matter just to defend Vortex, however if that was any bit truth, we wouldn't have LOOT in the first place, nor would Vortex try to sort the MODs. Would love to watch those guys play with a Master like USSEP at the end of their load order (since they claim the order doesn't matter).

 

Fact is I've seen Vortex load patches before the mods they supposed to patch, load dependencies after the mods that need them, and etc. I pitty anyone who relies on automatic sorting from Vortex cause it's plain awful (I even have my doubts it uses LOOT at all).

 

No sane person with more than 50 MODs in Skyrim (or other game sensible to load order) will ever use Vortex, there's a reason most people use MO2, no offense of course.

 

lol

You're obviously trolling, but I'll play along anyway...

 

my current load orders

 

FO4 = 275 mods

FONV = 127 mods

FO3 = 112 mods

SSE = 225 mods.

 

All crash-free

 

I've been using Vortex since the beginning of 2018.

I used to be the person who started all of the "We need manual load ordering!" threads.

 

 

 

People will have you believe load order doesn't matter just to defend Vortex, however if that was any bit truth, we wouldn't have LOOT in the first place, nor would Vortex try to sort the MODs. Would love to watch those guys play with a Master like USSEP at the end of their load order (since they claim the order doesn't matter).

 

Nobody has claimed that "Load order doesn't matter", what people are saying is, that you don't have to micromanage the PLUGIN load order like you are advocating for.

Also, your "Put USSEP at the bottom of the load order" is a false equivalency and a complete non-sequitur, since it's a MASTER in the first place, and No other Mod Manager would allow it, and neither would the Base Game.

 

 

 

Fact is I've seen Vortex load patches before the mods they supposed to patch, load dependencies after the mods that need them, and etc. I pitty anyone who relies on automatic sorting from Vortex cause it's plain awful (I even have my doubts it uses LOOT at all).

 

Screenshots please, or it didn't happen.

What's even more interesting is that, NOBODY, has come in here looking for help with ANY of the problems you've just described, NOT EVEN YOU.

So, it sounds more like Vortex isn't the problem, and it's most likely PEBCAK on your part.

 

 

 

No sane person with more than 50 MODs in Skyrim (or other game sensible to load order) will ever use Vortex, there's a reason most people use MO2, no offense of course.

 

You're far too obvious at this point, also the Argumentum ad Populum ("MOST people use MO2") is ridiculous and unsubstantiated, unless you'd care to post some actual statistics to back up that claim?

After all, if you make that claim, then surely you have access to some database that compares the usage percentages between the different mod managers right?

I look forward to seeing those graphs, as do most of us.

 

Also, I hope you know that the person who wrote Vortex is the same person who wrote MO2.

 

 

Anyway, you're hanging out below, waiting to see if your bait got a response, so I'll close this post, so you can go back to having fun on your Friday night.

 

 

[AugustaCalidia]

 

No sane person with more than 50 MODs in Skyrim (or other game sensible to load order) will ever use Vortex,

 

Well, I guess I must be insane because I mod Fallout 4 using Vortex, and my game has 216 mods. In fact, I've so mentally gone off the rails that I also use Vortex for Fallout 3, Skyrim SE, all with more than 50 mods. In spite of my deteriorated mental state, Vortex successfully manages all these games with little intervention on my part.

 

 

Vortex already supports manual sort order, however it is extremely frustrating and tiresome to use compared to other Mod Managers.

 

That's true for people who don't realize how genuinely revolutionary Vortex is and therefore try to turn it into something that it's not.

 

 

Would love to watch those guys play with a Master like USSEP at the end of their load order (since they claim the order doesn't matter).

 

You're battling a straw man here. I know of no knowledgeable person in these forums who believes that plugin load order has absolutely no impact on a game.

 

 

People will have you believe load order doesn't matter just to defend Vortex,

 

The straw man again. To say that load order doesn't matter in the context of using Vortex is to say that dealing with plugin load order is not where we need to spend most of our time. That's because Vortex with integrated LOOT does most of the heavy lifting in regard to plugin load order. This allows one to concentrate on any fine tuning, if needed. Furthermore, this frees up time to concentrate on file conflict issues.

 

 

Fact is I've seen Vortex load patches before the mods they supposed to patch, load dependencies after the mods that need them, and etc.

 

I've never seen this, and I've been using Vortex for over a year.

 

there's a reason most people use MO2, no offense of course.

 

What is your source for this? Can you provide solid, verifiable numbers to support this claim?

 

EDIT: Well, it looks like HTR is the troll slayer this time. I fully endorse what he has said.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Augusta Calidia

[IKobi]

Both of you lost reason the moment you resorted to insults.

 

Nobody has claimed that "Load order doesn't matter"

 

Right, https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7620913-make-maunually-changing-load-order-easier/&do=findComment&comment=69855278

 

One of many, Vortex does such a good job as stated below.

 

Screenshots please, or it didn't happen.

What's even more interesting is that, NOBODY, has come in here looking for help with ANY of the problems you've just described, NOT EVEN YOU.

So, it sounds more like Vortex isn't the problem, and it's most likely PEBCAK on your part.

Why the hell would I ask for help, for something I can manage by myself? Plus I'm not about to ruin my load order again just to prove a point.

If you want specifics I can clearly state them.

SkyUI was being loaded after Enchanced Blood Textures, which needs MCM to manage some settings.

Compatability patches for Immersive Sounds Compendium where being loaded before USSEP Master, to add insult to injury one of those patches was for USSEP itself.

Even Immersive Armors was being loaded upside down, contrary to the instructions hothtrooper44 gave.

The rest are mods which Vortex has no way of knowing what they doing and how essential their load order is, MODs that affect multipliers, stats, loot and others which need to be loaded late after speicifc mods so everything can work correctly, where being loaded in the middle and near top (and obviously not working correctly).

Plus, no one is going to report issues on the Vortex section, the issues are reported in the specific MOD pages, so feel free to navigate and see the common problems with load orders.

 

You're far too obvious at this point, also the Argumentum ad Populum ("MOST people use MO2") is ridiculous and unsubstantiated, unless you'd care to post some actual statistics to back up that claim?

What the hell are you talking about, failing to even come up with a solid argument on top of resorting to insults, you go after the only thing that doesn't matter whasoever for the Vortex discussion.

As for Augusta I won't even answer, when both you stop resorting to insults I'll reconsider coming back here. This is the last place where I expected such toxic behaviour, and shows I'm wasting my time here.

Edited May 11, 2019 by JoseSnake

[Guest deleted34304850]

don't feed the trolls.

i reported this for what it is - an extremely poor attempt at trolling.

[Rattledagger]

 

Fact is I've seen Vortex load patches before the mods they supposed to patch, load dependencies after the mods that need them, and etc. I pitty anyone who relies on automatic sorting from Vortex cause it's plain awful (I even have my doubts it uses LOOT at all).

 

I've seen more than one patch where the plugin don't include any masters (except for Skyrim.esm and Update.esm) and not surprisingly with no supplied information Vortex don't put this plugin in any particular order.

 

If on the other hand a patch that is supposed to patch mod A and B includes both A and B as masters, the only reasons Vortex don't load the patch after A and B are:

 

1: Vortex is giving an error, example about missing master, and for this reason isn't sorting at all.

2: You've disabled sorting in Vortex.

3: You've manually locked the patch to a particular mod index.

4: You've loaded the load order from a save-game and in this save-game the order is wrong.

[IKobi]

 

 

Fact is I've seen Vortex load patches before the mods they supposed to patch, load dependencies after the mods that need them, and etc. I pitty anyone who relies on automatic sorting from Vortex cause it's plain awful (I even have my doubts it uses LOOT at all).

 

I've seen more than one patch where the plugin don't include any masters (except for Skyrim.esm and Update.esm) and not surprisingly with no supplied information Vortex don't put this plugin in any particular order.

 

If on the other hand a patch that is supposed to patch mod A and B includes both A and B as masters, the only reasons Vortex don't load the patch after A and B are:

 

1: Vortex is giving an error, example about missing master, and for this reason isn't sorting at all.

2: You've disabled sorting in Vortex.

3: You've manually locked the patch to a particular mod index.

4: You've loaded the load order from a save-game and in this save-game the order is wrong.

 

Unfortunally I rarely see MODs including others as Masters, outside the usual vanilla Masters.

 

I also noticed the trend where unlike LE of Skyrim, USSEP has less support from Modders. Back in LE the Unofficial Patch was pretty much a requirement for most MODs, while with SE we need to install compatibility patches.

 

I had to put the Enhanced Blood Mod on it's own group, to avoid Vortex from putting it after Immersive Sounds (as Immersive Sounds include patches for that specific MOD so they can work correctly together).

 

Fact is you not going to get a perfect load order with neither LOOT nor Vortex, the sorting you get from those is a starting point to help you (this same words where said by LOOT developer years ago), so claiming you don't need to sort your MODs is wrong (especially when you have lots of MODs that intersect each other).

 

Although the groups (in Vortex) help a lot in sorting MODs (which is what I use, with one or two rules), the current way to change the MOD Index directly is as I said above unpratical and frustrating.

Edited May 11, 2019 by JoseSnake

[Rattledagger]

I also noticed the trend where unlike LE of Skyrim, USSEP has less support from Modders. Back in LE the Unofficial Patch was pretty much a requirement for most MODs, while with SE we need to install compatibility patches.

Just my guess but since SSE and likely USSEP still have fairly frequent updates, even if the SSE-updates don't normally change anything to the base game, at least any USSEP-fixes relevant for mod must be included in mod and wherefore must be changed if USSEP-fix is changed. By keeping mod and patch separate this means mod-author only needs to update the patch and not the full mod. In most cases I would expect the small patch can be supplied as ESL and therefore don't really count against the total number of plugins. So both for the user and for the mod author only needing to update a small 10 KB patch is easier than having to update a 100 MB+ mod.

 

I had to put the Enhanced Blood Mod on it's own group, to avoid Vortex from putting it after Immersive Sounds (as Immersive Sounds include patches for that specific MOD so they can work correctly together).

 

A quick test reveals the patch on https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2951 has "db - Enhanced Blood Main.esp" as master, so I fail to see how this particular patch is a problem.

 

Fact is you not going to get a perfect load order with neither LOOT nor Vortex, the sorting you get from those is a starting point to help you (this same words where said by LOOT developer years ago), so claiming you don't need to sort your MODs is wrong (especially when you have lots of MODs that intersect each other).

 

I don't remember anyone ever claiming you don't need to do anything in addition to the LOOT master-list order, since your linked quote from the other message explicitly mentions "if where's no conflicts" and the fact is if where's no conflicts between plugins nor conflicts between any of the files loaded by bsa loaded by plugin, the plugin order doesn't matter.

 

Although the groups (in Vortex) help a lot in sorting MODs (which is what I use, with one or two rules), the current way to change the MOD Index directly is as I said above unpratical and frustrating.

 

Directly changing mod index is very impractical, but it's neither recommended nor necessary, since by using Groups any kind of plugin order can be handled. While in most instances not so effective it's also possible to use "load after…" rules to get the same load order. While using groups or rules can be improved, it's not certain it's easy to program any changes and it's not certain these changes will markedly improve things.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Rattledagger

[HadToRegister]

 

 

Both of you lost reason the moment you resorted to insults.

 

Nobody has claimed that "Load order doesn't matter"

 

Right, https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7620913-make-maunually-changing-load-order-easier/&do=findComment&comment=69855278

 

That's some nice cherry picking there.

That thread was talking about Load order and scripts, and how shuffling the load order affects them or not.

 

 

If you want specifics I can clearly state them.

SkyUI was being loaded after Enchanced Blood Textures, which needs MCM to manage some settings.

Compatability patches for Immersive Sounds Compendium where being loaded before USSEP Master, to add insult to injury one of those patches was for USSEP itself.

Even Immersive Armors was being loaded upside down, contrary to the instructions hothtrooper44 gave.

I'm willing to bet you've clicked on a column header and aren't sorting your load order by MOD INDEX or LOAD ORDER.

I did that by accident once.

I was wondering why Vortex put a Mod ABOVE it's master, until I realized I was sorting my load order by NAME or something equally wrong.

 

So far the majority of problems we've covered in the support forums have been user error with an occasional bug.

[IKobi]

Just my guess but since SSE and likely USSEP still have fairly frequent updates, even if the SSE-updates don't normally change anything to the base game, at least any USSEP-fixes relevant for mod must be included in mod and wherefore must be changed if USSEP-fix is changed. By keeping mod and patch separate this means mod-author only needs to update the patch and not the full mod. In most cases I would expect the small patch can be supplied as ESL and therefore don't really count against the total number of plugins. So both for the user and for the mod author only needing to update a small 10 KB patch is easier than having to update a 100 MB+ mod.

 

That makes sense, however some patches are from third-parties is why I said the lack of support part.

A quick test reveals the patch on https://www.nexusmod...ition/mods/2951 has "db - Enhanced Blood Main.esp" as master, so I fail to see how this particular patch is a problem.

 

I can't say, I had same problem with SkyUI that was loading after Enhanced Blood, considering Enhanced Blood uses MCM would be counter productive.

I fixed it either way through Manual Sorting.

Directly changing mod index is very impractical, but it's neither recommended nor necessary, since by using Groups any kind of plugin order can be handled. While in most instances not so effective it's also possible to use "load after…" rules to get the same load order. While using groups or rules can be improved, it's not certain it's easy to program any changes and it's not certain these changes will markedly improve things.

 

I don't feel in control of my mods and load order with Vortex, due to the extra steps needed to setup everything how we want.

 

I had to fix a conflict between 2 sets of 2 mods once.

 

MOD A conflicts with MOD B

MOD C conflicts with MOD D

 

So I told Vortex to load MOD C before MOD D

 

Then when I went to fix the conflict between MOD A and MOD B some of the options were greyed out (I was forced to load MOD A after MOD B, even though that would cause problems).

 

It was at this moment I felt I had no control whasoever over my Load Order, this was probably a bug, but still.

Edited May 11, 2019 by JoseSnake