Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24801699.

blackasm wrote:

I only comment because of my ties to the community. I explained it all in another post recently and don't want to repeat it. I would like to see it get better. I however already left. A year ago I stopped all mod work for more satisfying endeavors. I did like modding but it was economically unsound time usage for me. Recent events piqued my interest though. So I came back and have been reminded why I left. Anyway I know what you are saying. Edited April 29, 2015 by greggorypeccary

[beewyka819]

In response to post #24800594.

OiramX5 wrote:

The modders are fully aware that many people still support them. That's not why some are removing their mods, they're doing it to prove a point. And what makes you any different from the haters? Oh, so you didn't like Nightasy's decision so you go and s#*! of him and other modders, that's exactly what the haters do. A true supporter would support the modder no matter what his decision on the publicity of his mods are, as long as the reasons don't include being an ***hole or anything along those lines. I for example, emailed Chesko and mentioned how I will support him through and through, no matter what his choice is, to stop modding, to continue, etc. THAT is a true fan, NOT someone that turns the other way because they got butthurt because everything didn't go their way.

[Axeface]

A story.

 

One day Dovahkiin was strolling happily through Riverwood, when he came across Alvor Bethgorr. Dovahkiin thought he'd try his hand at creating something.

 

"Alvor, Alvor! Could I use your forge?" Dovahkiin asked.

 

"Of course Dovahkiin, you can use the Creation Forge, but you can't sell what you make with it! You can of course put the things you make on that rack over there for people to take, the nexus stand!" Alvor exclaimed.

 

Dovahkiin found out that he could make some great things, and people came from far and wide to grab things from the nexus stand.

Most people took the things he made and enjoyed them very much, and a few of them even stopped by the forge to say thank you, or even give Dovahkiin a pat on the back. Everyone rejoiced with their new found wealth. Clothing fit for a king! The best and most beautifully crafted armour they could dream of! New spells to use! They were spoilt for choice, and there was much rejoicing.

A crowd gathered outside, and many people were enjoying all of Dovahkiins creations! Dovahkiin made many great things, but grew a little weary and wandered off on some other adventure.

 

 

Sometime later when Dovahkiin was becoming very bored of adventuring he recieved a message from Alvor Bethgorr.

 

" Dovahkiin, the people liked your things so much that I thought i'de offer you a deal.

If you make some new things I will let you sell them at the shop over the street, the Riverwood Workshop Trader! I'll take a cut, and so will the owner of the Workshop. Gotta pay our dues you know!" Alvor chuckled.

 

Dovahkiin thought about it and agreed.

 

"I can work in my own time, for myself, doing something I like doing! And maybe, if I'm good enough, no more slaying boss dragons or running around in my nine to five dungeon crawling! It's a dream come true!"

 

Dovahkiin began to pound away at the forge, his head filling with wonderful ideas, inspired, motivated! But he noticed a crowd beginning to gather outside. The crowd seemed very restless, and many were armed. Some in the crowd seemed deranged, slobbering and screaming.

 

" DOVAHKIIN YOU TRAITOR! How dare you tell us we need to buy these things now!" the crowd sneered.

"SNAAARGHGHH!" snorted a strange malformed creature.

" Dirty cad wh*%#! Die you shill!" cried many in the crowd, pitchforks brandished and torches lit.

 

Dovahkiin, terrified by this turn of events raised his mighty shield of flame resist, and cried back.

 

"But I thought you all liked what I did! All of the other things I made for you are still over there on the stand!" said Dovahkiin, pointing at the nexus rack.

 

"What he says is true!! The things are still there, people!" cried Alvor.

 

Unwavered by Dovahkiins cries the crowd began to approach.

 

" DIE!! Die you dirty greedy son of a hagraven! You can not charge for our things!!" heckled the crowd, becoming even more restless.

 

Without a moments pause the swelling crowd charged at Dovahkiin and Alvor, their fury unrelenting. Dovahkiin ran for his life.

 

"Riverwood, the amiable community by day belie the horrors that awake by night" sighed Dovahkiin.

 

The end 8)

Edited April 29, 2015 by Axeface

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

@Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

Edited April 29, 2015 by UberSmaug

[Mattoropael]

In response to post #24798859. #24798999, #24799109, #24799114, #24799789, #24800024, #24800839 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

Axeface wrote: Well said Nightasy, and thankyou for your tutorials. Sad to see your mods go, but I agree with everything you said.
Like someone else here said. Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance, and it's only a chance, because only quality would actually sell.
Self determination is important, and that has been refused.

In hindsight they should have actively curated the system, just like they do in other games. And allowed a donate button, instead of the 'pay-what-you-want-but-PAY' system.

UberSmaug wrote: Sums up everything I've been saying for the past few days. Well said.

greggorypeccary wrote: I don't see how any thinking person could fault you.

vimebox wrote: Playing music for a family event is DIFFERENT from playing concert! go join as bethesda employee if u want a "REAL CONCERT!" and play here if u want to entertain a POOR PATHETIC FAMILY! who can only gives u a constructive critics!

did u know that somehow your mod makes RICH people buy vanilla skyrim? and bethesda not giving u anything not even a simple thanks of endorsement from that uprising selling! instead we gave u endorsement as a portfolio for your good credibility. in conclusion bethesda SHOULD make u as their employee/DLC project instead of taking money from your FAMILY!

arxerisdam wrote: i think all modders who feel that way should actually go and download their stuff.

Someone else will take the place and life will go on.

greggorypeccary wrote: I think they will. So what's your point. In the end you can download free mods from wealthy people and people that think it is their hobby and very new modders who just want experience. They will be free though so I guess you win. Some will even be good.

Well, goodbye then?

What makes you think you're the first? What makes you think Skyrim is the first place I've seen modders with attitude like yours?

From what I see over the years (including games with a free/paid mod split like The Sims), every time someone rage-quits, the community on a whole remains unchanged, the status quo is maintained and nobody even remembers that modder after a few months at best.

One piece of advice: Don't get fooled by those who say "Awwww thank you for all these years of modding, I will miss you" when you announce your retirement. They'll happily move on before the end of the week and forget about you altogether.

[beewyka819]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.

Donations don't work.

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24801964.

Axeface wrote:

Well done story but it forgets to factor in:
-Licencing (Most free modeling software do not let you sell work made on it, you need to fork out a grand for the full version).
-Lack of quality assurance (someone on imgur reviewed all the paid mods, needless to say, most of their quality was lacking and there were bugs galore)
-Risk of modder who stops supporting his/her mod incase an update breaks it.
-Incompatibility between mods

I could go on, but I believe I made my point. The issue goes far beyond "I want to make money off my work" and "I do not want to pay a dime for a mod". Best not to use a strawman when making a point.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24799164. #24799594, #24801449, #24801539, #24801584, #24801689, #24801784, #24801834, #24801889 are all replies on the same post.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Spoken like someone with no files. I wonder how many mods are in your load order?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: How many mods are in yours? I am not going to explain any contributions I may or may not have made to the community because that is a red herring and irrelevant.

Bottom line:

If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

greggorypeccary wrote: An as long as you get free mods you like it that way. I'm not surprised . But be aware I am not alone in my thoughts.

freedom613 wrote: Vesuvius, Greggory;

What would you think of Patreon? OpenWorldAddict made a post about it:

"I have an idea for modders.... why not use Patreon. I know a lot of modders from other communities that have patreon accounts that allow people that want to support them to pay want they want either per month or for each mod that is uploaded or updated.

I think the way patreon works would be great for the modders and the community. Not It allows people who really want to support their favorite content creators and have the money to due so, but it also ensures that the modders will make enough money for those high paying patrons and thus be able to provide their content for free to the rest of the community who can't afford to even pay donations.

That is my idea, and I think it is a great one."

This has worked with Youtubers and Minecrafters, I see no reason why it cannot work with Skyrim?

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not familiar with it. But all options are open.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And YOU get free mods also, don't you? You've probably downloaded hundreds of free mods on multiple games. You have used the fruits of OTHER PEOPLE's labor for your own enjoyment, or used them to create your own stuff, or "borrowed" resources, or have something or other that relies on something else.

You people are shortsighted, and your greed is sickening. Modders have been donating their work to this community for over a decade without any expectation--other than people pay-it-forward. People with actual marketable programming skills have donated COUNTLESS HOURS of their time to give this community FREE resources and utilities just to encourage them to put out more mods. I bet you have at least a half a dozen of those utilities and resources on your computer right now. Modding is and always has been a group effort, and this is what you people fail to understand. In your narcissism and arrogance you feel you are entitled to stand on the shoulders of others and profit off of that.

arxerisdam wrote: What you say is true, the elder scrolls community as always been an open source community sharing between everyone to create better stuff.

With all the crying and saddness from modders, as anyone has stoping feel sorry for himiself and think.

"Ok i want to make money out of this. Now, HOW im going to convince mod-users to pay for this?"

Because in the end is they who are going to buy the mods, if not who else?

because i doubt you sell as much as downloads you have in some of the most popular mods really.

And the really whats chesko did uploading a paid mod without asking permission from Fore's was really a big mistake and bring another more urgent problem the stealing of work from others. and thast a big problem because all you have in this kind of community is your reputation and i bet that hurt him at least a little.

So instead of whining and crying you need to start thnking how you will sell the idea to mod users (customers with money) to buy your mods because i suspect the next fallout or elder scrolls game will try this again.

They see mods like a source of future income, and it can be a very lucrative one.

As long the players are willing to buy mods.

freedom613 wrote: Patreon is a nutshell works like Kickstarter does but with donations instead of crowd funding. If I donate $1/mo the modder rewards me with screenshots of the upcoming versions. If I donate $10/mo the modder lets me beta test. If I donate $30/mo, the modder may put my name in the credits.

Basically, when you donate, you are rewarded with a Gift Basket. Think going to your mate's birthday in elementary school and you "donated" him a present and in return you got a goody bag with a piece of chocolate or what not.

@Freedom I understand your position, and I am totally cool with donations to mod authors (and have donated, and encourage others to do so).

Most of the mod authors in this community are great, and their work is appreciated. I am shocked by the behavior I have seen from a small but vocal percentage of mod authors. I am disgusted by the entitlement mentality they have, and the belief that they feel they should be allowed to profit off of other people's work, or incorporate free resources other people have donated for free into their work, and then profit off of that. I am dismayed by the temper tantrums I have seen from these people; some modders taking their marbles and running home (several of them removing all of their mods from the Nexus and saying, "If I can't get paid, f*#@ you!"

In another thread a mod author even admitted she has downloaded over a TB of free mods from the Nexus, and has never donated a cent to either Nexus, or another mod author. I think that pretty much sums up the problem I have with these people.

I do think one good thing will come from all of this: that this situation will cull the greedy pieces of excrement who are trying to make a money grab from the community of passionate and dedicated mod authors. Edited April 29, 2015 by Vesuvius1745

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24801759.

DaddyDirection wrote:

Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

[Marstonn]

In response to post #24799164. #24799594, #24801449, #24801539, #24801584, #24801689, #24801784, #24801834, #24801889, #24802154 are all replies on the same post.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Spoken like someone with no files. I wonder how many mods are in your load order?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: How many mods are in yours? I am not going to explain any contributions I may or may not have made to the community because that is a red herring and irrelevant.

Bottom line:

If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

greggorypeccary wrote: An as long as you get free mods you like it that way. I'm not surprised . But be aware I am not alone in my thoughts.

freedom613 wrote: Vesuvius, Greggory;

What would you think of Patreon? OpenWorldAddict made a post about it:

"I have an idea for modders.... why not use Patreon. I know a lot of modders from other communities that have patreon accounts that allow people that want to support them to pay want they want either per month or for each mod that is uploaded or updated.

I think the way patreon works would be great for the modders and the community. Not It allows people who really want to support their favorite content creators and have the money to due so, but it also ensures that the modders will make enough money for those high paying patrons and thus be able to provide their content for free to the rest of the community who can't afford to even pay donations.

That is my idea, and I think it is a great one."

This has worked with Youtubers and Minecrafters, I see no reason why it cannot work with Skyrim?

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not familiar with it. But all options are open.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And YOU get free mods also, don't you? You've probably downloaded hundreds of free mods on multiple games. You have used the fruits of OTHER PEOPLE's labor for your own enjoyment, or used them to create your own stuff, or "borrowed" resources, or have something or other that relies on something else.

You people are shortsighted, and your greed is sickening. Modders have been donating their work to this community for over a decade without any expectation--other than people pay-it-forward. People with actual marketable programming skills have donated COUNTLESS HOURS of their time to give this community FREE resources and utilities just to encourage them to put out more mods. I bet you have at least a half a dozen of those utilities and resources on your computer right now. Modding is and always has been a group effort, and this is what you people fail to understand. In your narcissism and arrogance you feel you are entitled to stand on the shoulders of others and profit off of that.

arxerisdam wrote: What you say is true, the elder scrolls community as always been an open source community sharing between everyone to create better stuff.

With all the crying and saddness from modders, as anyone has stoping feel sorry for himiself and think.

"Ok i want to make money out of this. Now, HOW im going to convince mod-users to pay for this?"

Because in the end is they who are going to buy the mods, if not who else?

because i doubt you sell as much as downloads you have in some of the most popular mods really.

And the really whats chesko did uploading a paid mod without asking permission from Fore's was really a big mistake and bring another more urgent problem the stealing of work from others. and thast a big problem because all you have in this kind of community is your reputation and i bet that hurt him at least a little.

So instead of whining and crying you need to start thnking how you will sell the idea to mod users (customers with money) to buy your mods because i suspect the next fallout or elder scrolls game will try this again.

They see mods like a source of future income, and it can be a very lucrative one.

As long the players are willing to buy mods.

freedom613 wrote: Patreon is a nutshell works like Kickstarter does but with donations instead of crowd funding. If I donate $1/mo the modder rewards me with screenshots of the upcoming versions. If I donate $10/mo the modder lets me beta test. If I donate $30/mo, the modder may put my name in the credits.

Basically, when you donate, you are rewarded with a Gift Basket. Think going to your mate's birthday in elementary school and you "donated" him a present and in return you got a goody bag with a piece of chocolate or what not.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Freedom I understand your position, and I am totally cool with donations to mod authors (and have donated, and encourage others to do so).

Most of the mod authors in this community are great, and their work is appreciated. I am shocked by the behavior I have seen from a small but vocal percentage of mod authors. I am disgusted by the entitlement mentality they have, and the belief that they feel they should be allowed to profit off of other people's work, or incorporate free resources other people have donated for free into their work, and then profit off of that. I am dismayed by the temper tantrums I have seen from these people; some modders taking their marbles and running home (several of them removing all of their mods from the Nexus and saying, "If I can't get paid, f*#@ you!"

In another thread a mod author even admitted she has downloaded over a TB of free mods from the Nexus, and has never donated a cent to either Nexus, or another mod author. I think that pretty much sums up the problem I have with these people.

I do think one good thing will come from all of this: that this situation will cull the greedy pieces of excrement who are trying to make a money grab from the community of passionate and dedicated mod authors.

I think isn't allowed to the modders get a patreon to make mods, and is forbid announce the patreon in the page mod.