MarchinBunny

Here is a portion from the article you linked me: This goes exactly with what I said. It is an accepted De Facto truth that FanArt and FanFiction are legal. However, if you ask for money or donations in regards to your work (in other words, making a profit) you can have legal action taken against you. That or, stupidly try and pass the work off as your own. The same also applies to a very small amount of copyright holders (like Ann Rice) that have pursued legal action against FanFiction authors. These are outlers in the grand scheme of things and do not prove me wrong in any shape or form. You can't just cherry pick from the article. Read the whole thing, it clearly states it's technically against copyright laws. It's just the companies do not act on it. Just because companies don't do anything, does not mean it isn't against copyright. Again, read the whole thing. And if you did read the whole thing, then maybe you need to take reading comprehension classes because it clearly states it's against copyright. That is literally what the whole article is about. Edit: I think where you and I disagree is mainly due to you misunderstanding what I am talking about. You keep saying it's an accepted "de facto" truth that it's legal. That is literally impossible because it's illegal. It's a "de facto" truth that it's allowed. Not that it's legal. Two very different things. Just because the company allows it, doesn't mean it's not against copyright laws.

Actually, we already have an example of paid mods that exists. Minecraft allows it and some mod makers sell their mods. However ... you typically never hear about them because their popularity is non existent. I am sure the mod developers do earn money that way, but I doubt most people would be willing to buy mods. The reason this is the case is because ... there is no try before you can buy with paid mods. Yet, typically when I mod a game, I often try and remove mods frequently. If many mod makers did use such a pay system, it would literally mean having to buy a mod you may not even end up liking. quality can be a real big issue when it comes to mods. Something can sound really cool, and then while using the mod, it just doesn't work well. I don't think paid mods will get very far even if it's tried again and it sticks. Mod makers may give it a try, but when they see they are making hardly anything and their mods popularity just tanks if it even ever becomes popular at all, they will likely release their mods for free in the future. However, there will also be the cost that it will harm their reputation with some people. I personally, don't think it's worth the aggravation it would bring. Edit: Also mod makers can do what they love for a job, it's called being a game developer. They could even create their own games as a side while doing mods. They would get a lot of attention too from Gopher probably as he has already spot lighted a couple games being made by mod developers.

What irony? There doesn't seem to be any irony, unless you're talking about something not related directly with my post.

Just because there happen to be some people in disagreement doesn't mean they are trolls. What is with people today and using that word wrongly? Gasp, you don't entirely agree with me O.O? You must be one of them trolls I been hearin about in these here parts. The reason things here are divisive is due to the fact of different cultures surrounding PC and console players and different views about copyright and how it's followed or lack of being followed today. Then of course you have issues with certain people and their attitudes, which also does not help. But again, I would not consider any of these people trolls. Are their trolls, certainly! But again, the ones who disagree, does not automatically make them trolls.

I am sorry, but the community is not like that lol, you are seeing things that are not actually there. I am betting more than half the community on pc don't even check if the mod on the nexus is stolen or not. I know I certainly do not, and I am willing to admit that because it's not really something I even think about when looking for mods. I mean, you do know the steam workshop has existed for some time now right? Where it's pretty much one click and install. How many people there do you see making sure the mod isn't stolen? You can't just pin this on console players lol.

Which makes it De Facto, exactly how it works. Making FanArt or something resemble something does not violate copyright unless you are asking for payment. Again, not true. You don't have to be selling it, in order for it to be against copyright. Here is some information on the issue. https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2010/05/13/the-messy-world-of-fan-art-and-copyright/

I agree, I actually have already mention the exact same thing earlier in this discussion. It is a double standard, but people just don't like to admit that it is, especially when it's about their own property. A lot of companies also get flak from fans for standing up for their copyrights. But, from what I have been told here by a moderator, it's damaging to speak the truth. XD

That's not really how copyright laws work. Technically speaking, if someone makes an iron man mod, that is against copyright. There are many mods here that are technically against copyright. Even fanart is against copyright. The thing is though, companies just generally allow it, because it would do more harm than good to try and enforce it. In fact, for them it's actually beneficial to allow it. Copyright laws are complicated and not always 100% followed to a T. The fact is, most people here have broken copyright laws in some way. Some more than others. There was a big talk about copyright at a past comicon. It's a pretty interesting video to hear since it goes over many things we do that are technically against copyright.

I always hate this sort of line people use. This isn't the law where ignorance isn't an excuse, because as a citizen you should know the law. This is something where ignorance is a perfectly acceptable excuse. In plus, even when it comes to the law, people who buy things that happened to be stolen don't necessarily get in trouble because it's impossible for them to know it was stolen. Ya, I am sure there are ways to figure it out, but most people are not going to be detectives looking at every single mod that pops up so closely. They would literally have to first look at the mod on the console .. and if there is no way to tell there, they would then have to come onto the nexus to see if you can figure it out here. (It still could be stolen even after all that, since the mod authors name might be different on bethesda.net ... or they may have not even signed up and someone else took their name) No one has time for that crap and expecting people to do something like that is pretty delusional. There probably are still people who have no idea stolen mods is even a thing. The only people who likely know are those who pay attention to this site, or some other game site that may have covered the story. If you try to go after innocent people, and yes .. they are innocent whether you like it or not, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I finally understand where you're coming from. Your view of mods is the Traditional View. The view that says modding if open and free to everyone. In this view there really isn't any theft of mods, unless someone claims ownership over a mod they did not create. The open sharing of mods was key. You are correct in assuming that school of thought is largely gone. The Modern View for modding is that Mod Authors have sole ownership rights over their intellectual property (their mods), and therefore, their mods should not be redistributed by anyone without their express permission. This is clearly the stance of the Nexus, and the stance of even Bethesda itself. Ya, times certainly do change, that is for sure. XD I guess I just need to accept that this is the way things are now. Though I do still think it's just stressing everyone out doing it this way. Thanks for understanding by the way. It can be frustrating when you try to explain something, but everyone think you are trying to advocate stealing or something xD.

The moment a person claims it as their own is when I have a problem. Redistributing though, is not much of a concern to me because all it means is that more people get to enjoy it and that was the purpose for making the mods I made. It was fun, and I like when people like what I make. I really don't see any reason to be so restrictive on these things. I would prefer them give credit, but it's not 100% needed. I should mention that I did always put some signature in the maps I made. So if it really came down to it, I could always prove it was my work. Though I thought just about all artists / creators did this. Exactly what negative is there for me when people share my content? Besides more work that may occur because of it, which I don't mind doing, and technically it's not like I had to do it ... I don't see any negatives. Maybe I am just from a time where mods where more of an open thing.

It appears that you didn't understand what I wrote. Financially it may cost nothing, but there is also an implied contractual obligation imparted on the user by the author and the host site, that the author's work may not be redistributed freely without the author's explicit consent. This is the main crux of the problem discussed here without the various obfuscations and mental gymnastics people have come up with to justify this practice. Theft of property for any reason is taught as being not only illegal, but morally wrong. This is very clear and is not subjective to the individual. It is most certainly not a "grey" area. Breach of Contract, is also wrong. The user agrees to the terms before being allowed to download and use the author's property. This too, is not a "grey" area. A product may be free of financial encumbrance to the user, but the product is still "conditionally" given, ie; there are strings attached. Unless you have actually created custom game content and found said content distributed under another name on a different site, you will never completely understand why the authors are so fully and completely against this piracy of their work. (I have submitted no content for FO4, but have seen my work stolen from Simtropolis (me=North Country Dude) and posted to EA's SimCity 4 Exchange site while the perpetrator claimed it as his/her own work. I tried to get EA to take it down, but they ignored me. Thankfully, EA's SimCity Exchange site is no longer around.) I would like to add that many have stated that just because "piracy" is inevitable, the authors should just apathetically accept it. This too, is wrong on many levels and has only served to create even more stringent DRM measures imposed by authors and their publishers. There are, of course, even more graphic examples in history of such apathy, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion. While piracy can never be completely eliminated, it can be "thwarted" and measures taken to minimize it's impact. Making the work of property theft as difficult as actually creating the original work will deter all but the most determined criminal, and even in that underworld, nothing is free. It is a grey area when it comes to morality whether you like it or not simply because this moral rule that is suppose to exist isn't followed under all circumstances, nor can it even be agreed upon by everyone. Whether it's legal or not, is irrelevant because we already break copyright laws all the time. If you are going to argue for copyright laws here, then technically you should under every circumstance as well where it's being broken. As for creating content, I used to be a mod creator back in the day. Half-Life DM maps. I also have had art stolen. I know exactly how it is, but I am not so blind to just ignore the reality of the situation and say everything is 100% clear, because it isn't. If it was so clear, we wouldn't be arguing about it. It wouldn't be a problem. There wouldn't be any controversy over it.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else. Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion. First part, no it isn't like a base for others to use. Many times a mod is a single, enclosed creative work. It isn't a connect-the-dots they give someone. And it is great you don't care. You make something and share it then are ok with others doing whatever (and many mods are like this) then superior attitude. But your single opinion can not over-ride the hundreds of mod authors that do not feel the same. That expect they can share what they want, where they want and have it used in the way they intended. You may think this is shallow or naive or even an attitude of asshattery. Nonetheless there is not a single thing saying they can not do as they please with their mods and that the mods are, copyrighted to the mod author as soon as it breathes life on a medium it may be demonstrated. It's similar. It's still an act of redistributing something without permission. Also, my "single opinion" is not meant to over-ride anyone else's. It's called having a discussion and bringing light to sides some may not have thought about.

No, I actually had not noticed it was the chain of replies that was all removed. I suppose that makes more sense though. However, something you should be aware about was it was specifically pointed out at boomerizer, when he wasn't the one throwing insults really. All he really did was state his opinion. That I do consider censorship because the moderator specifically talked about removing his posts, not the posts with insults or rule breaking. As for the authors, if they see no part in taking part in this discussion then clearly nothing is going to get solved. You don't solve things by ignoring the problem, no matter how much you hate dealing with the problem. They also need to be reasonable and understand the other side of the argument instead of just writing it off like everyone is out to destroy them. Like for example, I am not sticking up for mod theft, but you and everyone else needs to realize many people have no idea that this is even an issue whom are on console. Heck, even some people on PC may not be aware that the modding community here doesn't condone redistributing. To them, they are not doing anything wrong, no more wrong than passing on a picture they found on the internet. When you decide to bite peoples heads off, who feel they are not doing anything wrong, of course you are going to run into people who are not going to listen to you. Instead all they are going to take away from it is, that the PC crowd is a bunch of elitist (insert random insult). The damage isn't just being caused by one side, it's being caused by both sides. Also, it's not a meaningless opinion, and that is the type of attitude that causes people not to listen to each other. It's understandable that it's a huge issue to the authors, but they need to come to realize that it's not going to be that way for everyone. Not even all mod makers are in entire agreement. I may not be a mod maker anymore, but I am an artist and a game developer, so I am not new to these sorts of issues either. Yes, I hate when things are taken from me, as I am sure everyone would be. However, when it comes to the internet, the way things are handled are very very different. The double standards that exist, confuses people. Hell, it even confuses me. Why is it ... I can go on the net and just grab any image and repost it to facebook? No one bats an eye lash. Why can people post music on youtube as long as they are not monetizing? We allow some things, but then condemn other things simply depending on the media it is. Of course people are going to be confused. Not to mention, many of those who are mod makers don't even realize how hypocritical they are being. More often than not we shame companies for now allowing fans to redistribute content. we harp on them, and we act like they are the worst company in the world when they do this. Yet in this case money is in fact actually involved, so they have a better reason to be doing so, but we still go after them. Take Nintendo for example and their stance on youtube, and see all the crap they get for it. These issues are not just black and white. They are not so simple as saying this is wrong and this is right, not with the way copyright has gone on the internet. So let me be clear here on what I am saying. It's not just the thieves ruining the community, it's also the mod authors who don't know how to handle these things better or they have a very lack of understanding on stepping into a non creators perspective and how things have been recently with copyright. I am no specifically sticking up for any side, I think both sides have good points, and both sides are handling it terribly.

Hmm, I don't think you really understood his post very well. You went into a lot of details on things I don't think he was really speaking about. The fact of the matter is, copyright laws, have been pretty controversial ever since new types of medias have been born. There is no shame in needing to update these laws to be more specific, which needs to happen. As for your moral argument, sorry, but I don't view moral arguments as being valid simply because morality is very subjective. For example, I most certainly believe it's morally wrong to steal, in the sense where an item is being taken or removed and the owner no longer has it. I also think it's morally wrong to take something and claim it as your own. Where I think it begins to become a bit of a grey area is redistributing something that is already distributed for free on the net. I don't think it's right to do, but I also don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be. It's no different than copying a picture and posting it on facebook. If we where to call this immoral, then everyone is guilty of it 100%. We redistribute other peoples works all the time without permission. This is why there are problems with the copyright law, because there are double standards. Technically all fan art is against copyright. Don't even get me started when people sell prints and such of characters owned by other companies. Most people these days think fair use protects them, but that isn't actually true. Fair use is very limited.

Exactly this! I was pretty shocked they went and just removed all his comments. As I said previously in this topic ... I feel like what is causing more problems than anything is this sort of behavior. No one is solving anything simply by censoring and silencing those they do not agree with. DraketheDragon I believe his name was, a moderator, said that his comments and other peoples comments like his was causing massive destruction. Talk about an over reaction on the matter. I mean what destruction? I may not agree entirely with boomerizer ... but he didn't break any rules by stating his opinion, nor did he deserve all his comments purged. I could understand if he was advocating simply stealing mods out right and / or piracy, but that really wasn't what he was doing. Not if you know how to read. But people only want to hear what they want to hear and act like he said things much worse than what he actually said. Then they fling insults toward his way and even my way, and the mods remove his comments, not the people insulting others. Talk about having priorities all in the wrong places. Yet, people wonder why so many console players see the pc crowd the way they do lol.

Ya, I actually agree. I think if one of the mod developers decided to go this far, it would put off a lot of people from going further. The issue is, doing a lawsuit on something for free ... it's probably going to cost you a whole lot more than you may get. But at least it will cost the other party to have to spend a pretty penny as well XD. I assume most mod devs don't have the capabilities to do this.

I don't see how it's causing any damage, let alone it being massive. Stating an opinion .. is that really so bad simply because you don't agree with it? I don't think bringing these things up is causing anymore harm than what has already been done. For example, I am not sticking up for those who steal mods, but I am not going to beat around the bush and pretend that people are not going to download these stolen mods simply because you tell them not too. The massive amount of damage you speak of, has already occurred long before people stated their opinion. It happened as soon as mods became console compatible because it added a massive community smack in the middle of an already established one. Not only that but it's Unmoderated. Those who are quick to adapt will be far less stressed out. If mod developers are going to quit over this, then let them, because unless Bethesda pretty much scraps the whole console modding thing, you are going to have this problem with stolen mods. It's something you will absolutely have to deal with. We can sit here and point fingers all day at whom is to blame, who's opinions are damaging, who to call names, who to fight ... it's not going to solve a thing and it's certainly not going to prevent people from stealing the mods. I think it's actually only making the situation worse, not better.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else. Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion.

In response to post #39520310. Great post and 100% agree. Especially with your personal views. I also think it's a bit of a fools errand. A losing battle if you will. I do feel people should respect their wishes though regardless, but we all know how well that has been going.

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690, #39518820, #39519085, #39519310, #39519400, #39519465, #39519585, #39519975 are all replies on the same post. @Kraynic That isn't how copyright works. For example, if a site has a policy saying you are allowed to download or copy anything from their site, and it contains pirated games, that doesn't mean it's ok to do. Sites don't determine what is or isn't allowed. The laws do that. Edit: Copying anything that doesn't belong to you, under pretty much every single circumstance imaginable is against copyright no matter where you do it. Course, I am mostly talking about NA laws,

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690, #39518820, #39519085, #39519310, #39519400, #39519465 are all replies on the same post. @Kraynic Not sure what their policies has anything to do with what I said.

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690 are all replies on the same post. @bigdeano89 If we are to consider this piracy .. than a lot of things also are piracy that are widely accepted. Let's say you see a drawing that is pretty awesome on deviantart and want to show your friends and share it on facebook. That would then also be considered piracy .. would it not? You didn't get the authors permission to repost it on facebook .. right?

In response to post #39518120. 2. Impossible, you wouldn't know if it was stolen or not, unless you knew who made it to begin with or if the person admitted stealing it right in the title of the mod. That would be like holding someone responsible for downloading a stolen app on the appstore when they obviously wouldn't know. 3. I agree, but whether or not it can be stopped is a whole other discussion. 6. I agree, Bethesda really should be handling this better. Then we wouldn't have much of an issue at all. But the cards have fallen where they have. 7. Errr .. well not always. There have been some studies that have shown those who pirate music are actually also some of the best customers of music. Pirating is wrong, but it's not like all pirates are harming the industry or the developers. Pirates who want everything for free ... and never pays for anything, even when they are capable of doing so ... that is when I have the problem with them.

In response to post #39515150. #39515405, #39515615, #39517850 are all replies on the same post. @Kraynic Well, that is the issue, I don't think the mod authors are going to have much of a choice at the end of the day unless they upload their mod themselves. Don't want problems? Then just need to act quickly. This was bound to happen with console modding. You are introducing a community and service that the mod developers really have no control over.