Tidus44

"When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping. I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" Again, there is no indication that Ulfric did anything unlawful in his challenge. Torygg states exactly why Ulfric's honor is in question; Torygg had no hope of beating a much more experienced opponent (my fate inescapable) but still stood up and faced (ie: ready to fight) Ulfric without being considered a coward (my honor is unstained). Torygg is simply calling Ulfric a bully who used the means he knew would allow him to win his argument (that Torygg separate from the Empire). Roggvir was a city guard who was stationed at the city gates and allowed Ulfric to leave the city. You ask how he knew the challenge was lawful or honourable, but how did anyone in the crowd know that the challenge was unlawful or dishonourable? You have stated that Ulfric was hidden and no one saw exactly what Ulfric did to kill the King. You can't have it both ways and say that people saw and know and then say that no one saw and don't know to suit your needs. As for Ulfric seeing the need to escape the city, there are a number of reasons why he may have felt that way other than what he did in challenging the King being unlawful. Again, no one ever says the challenge was unlawful. As for the "honourable" issue, that is still a matter of interpretation and largely prejudiced by the fact a seasoned warrior killed an unskilled opponent by using a shout (seen as an unfair advantage) when he didn't need to do that to win his argument. Ulfric is also the leader of a rebellion in a city very much opposed to the rebellion, very much in favor of the Empire and who loved their King. Ulfric could have done everything legally and honourably, but because people got upset over what he has done and what he was leading, he figured he better get away before things got ugly for him.

I still don't see what "honourable" or what the "letter of the law" has to do with anything when there is no information about what the law is or what is considered honourable in challenging a King. Your stating, "What is honourable and what follows the letter of the law are often not the same thing." is meaningless unless you can state for a fact what is considered "honourable" and the "letter of the law" in Skyrim regarding a challenge to the King. For all anyone knows the challenge was perfectly honourable and to the letter of the law. The only controversy seems to be individual opinion about what Ulfric should have done. Obviously, something was going on as Ulfric found it necessary to escape from Solitude. However, suggesting it had to do solely with his challenge is unsubstantiated and imaginative speculation. Ulfric is the leader of a rebellion in the capital city full of Imperial troops and where a General who was sent to Skyrim to put down and execute the leader of the rebellion is located; could this not also be a situation that may possibly have had something to do with Ulfric finding it necessary to escape from the city? Additionally, there are those who do state that something was not entirely proper in what Ulfric did in the challenge, but do not specifically state what it was. The only indications are that Ulfric should have used diplomatic means rather than a challenge to convince the King to separate from the Empire and that Ulfric was a seasoned veteran and the King was not, but no one says the challenge was unlawful or that Ulfric did something wrong during the challenge. At best one can say people are upset because Ulfric killed the King who had no hope of besting him. I have said previously that there are no facts to support any reasoning and thus any conclusion is simply opinion based on an individual's prejudices. The game mechanics have nothing to do with the storyline. Torygg could have had the highest stats in the universe and Ulfric would still have beaten him because the storyline requires it. As for speculating what Ulfric did or did not do during the challenge is meaningless and only opinion because there is no means to determine the facts. Which brings me to the point that the discussion is not about honour or law, game mechanics or whatever red herring one wants to pull out of their imagination, it is whether or not Ulfric assassinated (ie: murdered) the King or did Torygg accept the challenge, face Ulfric with a weapon and get defeated. Pretty simple question.

Following to the letter and following to the spirit are not the same thing. "Face" only means he wasn't stabbed in the back. That isn't the same thing as having a chance to consider strategy, or even to grab a better weapon than whatever he was carrying at the time. It wasn't just a surprise attack but that doesn't mean it was a formal duel either. There is a lot of room in between those two. So you're saying Ulfric ambushed Torygg and murdered him. Just walked up and made his challenge and then immediately shouted to knock him down and stabbed him. If you say so, it must be true. And if you say otherwise, I must be false? I am saying Ulfric gave Torygg just enough time to say "I accept" and to (maybe) draw whatever weapon he had with him. Torygg did accept, we know that. As I said there is a lot of room between a surprise attack and a formal duel. So what you're saying now is Ulfric gave Torygg time to face him with a weapon in his hand and Ulfric didn't ambush him and didn't murder him? This is rather confusing as I am not sure what it is you are saying happened. Either Ulfric ambushed and murdered the King or he didn't. You can't have it both ways. Since there is absolutely no information on what constitutes a challenge in Skyrim, suggesting that a "formal duel" (whatever that is in your imagination) was required is simply unsubstantiated speculation. Its meaningless. What, if anything, in the game suggests a "formal duel" was required? What are the rules? How is it conducted? Where is the information in the game that states a formal duel was required? It obviously wasn't a surprise attack as everyone who talks of it knows it was a challenge and Torygg himself says he "faced" Ulfric but was beaten without any suggestion Ulfric did anything wrong. Its a simple question, did Ulfric simply walk up and murder the King with no warning or did he issue a challenge, allow the King to face him armed and then kill him by using his ability to shout and superior fighting skills?

Following to the letter and following to the spirit are not the same thing. "Face" only means he wasn't stabbed in the back. That isn't the same thing as having a chance to consider strategy, or even to grab a better weapon than whatever he was carrying at the time. It wasn't just a surprise attack but that doesn't mean it was a formal duel either. There is a lot of room in between those two. So you're saying Ulfric ambushed Torygg and murdered him. Just walked up and made his challenge and then immediately shouted to knock him down and stabbed him. If you say so, it must be true.

It is evident that Torygg did have time to prepare and wasn't just attacked by Ulfric. In speaking to various Jarls, mages and even Torygg himself, Torygg did "face" Ulfric, a word that suggests he was prepared on some level to fight a duel. The legality of the challenge or how it was done does not appear to be in question, which further suggests Ulfric didn't just enter the court, issue a challenge and then shout the King down and stab him with his sword. The issues seem to be that Ulfric had not used sufficient diplomatic means to try and convince Torygg to leave the Empire, Torygg was young and inexperienced whereas Ulfric was a seasoned veteran so the duel was "unfair" and lastly that Ulfric used a shout. While Ulfric is not the sharpest person in Skyrim, he is a traditionalist who would follow Nord customs to the letter. Obviously, such a challenge would be somewhat honorable in its process and not just a surprise attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FtzVxYSAPU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH1kuOiCJD0

How to get a refund at Steam https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6695-QIKM-7966&l=english Funny, I and the world seem to still be here.

Saw Threads a few years after seeing The Day After; both are good movies, but they are just fiction and as grim as they are in depicting a nuclear exchange and the effects an exchange would have, they are both quite optimistic. Unfortunately, post-apocalyptic books, movies and games tend to be somewhat unrealistic and optimistic, mainly because there wouldn't be much interest in them if they were factual. The sad part is, there is likely many who think they are realistic and one could survive and just be somewhat inconvenienced by it all. When it comes right down to it, not overly concerned about it, certainly not going to worry about it and have much better things to do than be bothered by it.

Apothegm; a short, instructive saying; an aphorism. Example; two wrongs don't make a right. Noticed recently that these seem to be a means for some people to say something rather than actually communicate.

I wish Steam would do a "lite" version. Its only purpose is DRM and I don't need or want or use the forums or the achievements or the friends or all the other useless crap Steam offers for no purpose other than to justify its existence. Even the "sales" are mostly rip offs and if one looks the games are offered at other locations for better prices.

There is no evidence that Tullius started the civil war; and much that says it was started by Ulfric. It is known that Ulfric captured Markarth in putting down the Forsworn that led to the Markarth Incident. The Empire promised Ulfric free worship of Talos in exchange for him releasing Markarth to the Empire. The Thalmor then pressured the Empire to crack down on Talos worship (which the Empire did) and this betrayal was key to Ulfric beginning his rebellion. There is no means to determine if the Ulfric/Torygg incident was fair/unfair or lawful/unlawful under accepted Nord traditions. Either side of this can be argued because there is no information on what the rules are other than the High King can be challenged and he must accept or be replaced. However, Ulfric fled the city after killing the High King – he was aided by the gate keeper who was executed for allowing Ulfric to get away. There is something obviously amiss because there would be no question of the fairness/lawfulness of the challenge by anyone and no need to “escape” from Solitude if everything had been as per the rules of Nordic tradition. It is obvious the challenge has been questionable and there is controversy attached to it. What it is specifically can only be conjectured based upon one’s opinions as there are no facts to support any of it. Tullius has no interest and doesn’t care about Nord traditions. He is there only to put down Ulfric and his rebellion. Tullius even says that Ulfric is a distraction from more important things (like the Thalmor). During Diplomatic Immunity he says, "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true." and “Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks." If you are a Stormcloak, on executing Tullius he says, "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion." As for the killing of Torygg, sure Tullius is somewhat upset, but not because of Nordic tradition, but because it caused him problems. Tullius says at Helgen: "You (Ulfric) started this war, plunged Skyrim into chaos, and now the Empire is going to put you down, and restore the peace.". Transporting Ulfric and all the prisoners to Cyrodiil for trial and execution makes no sense. Ulfric is the leader and if Tullius was to send anyone to Cyrodiil for the Empire to execute and send a message, it would have been Ulfric and only Ulfric; not a horse thief and a bunch of meaningless soldiers and some guy who wandered into the ambush. Fort Neugrad is also on that same road and is also an Empire prison so it is just as easy to suggest that the Fort was the destination or that the opening sequence has the prisoners coming from the Fort. The initial view in the game is after Fort Neugrad but before Helgen. No one in any cart suggests they are going to Cyrodiil so I have no idea where that comes from. Lokir asks, “Where are they taking us?” on finding out Ulfric is in the cart. Rolaf then says, “I don’t know where we are going, but Sovngarde awaits.”. Tullius is also leading the carts as when the gate to Helgen is approached, the guard says, “General Tullius, sir. The headsman is waiting.”. Tullius then says, “Good, let’s get this over with.” Obviously, Tullius is with the carts because Ulfric is there and as military governor Tullius wants to see him executed but doesn’t place much gravity to the situation when saying “Let’s get this over with” as if it were just another interruption to an otherwise busy man with better things to do. I don't see any conspiracy or evil from the Empire in executing Ulfric as soon as they can after capturing him. He's just a pain and one they need to get rid of so they can move on to more important things.

extemporize; to speak with little or no advance preparation.

I suppose gold is worthless, depending on how one plays. I typically find a number of things I need to spend gold on and find it rather useful. I don't get exceedingly rich, but I seem to get sufficient to get what I want and need in the game. I also find that generally on finding some hidden chest that has a Master lock I am lucky to get 10 septims. A chest out in the open with a novice lock or unlocked tends to have 45 septims. Makes one wonder at the individual who owned the septims. Death-Brand was a huge disappointment from a number of aspects, including the treasure. Two crappy scimitars and some sad looking armor. Some pirate.

Not an entirely unbelievable theory; and while I don't specifically agree with the reasoning, there is the fact the opening sequence has the carts arriving at Helgen from the south road; not from the the east road, which does make one wonder how that came about. I can't think of any reason why Tullius would have had any order for a trial or an execution of Ulfric in Cyrodiil as a show of the Empires power or authority. The rebellion isn't seen as anything other than a minor nuisance that Tullius has to deal with in order to get on with other more important issues. Tullius does refer to it as a "little rebellion" and there are strong indications in the game that he would much rather be focusing on dealing with the Thalmor problem than Ulfric. The only importance he assigns to the "little rebellion" is that it has taken critical resources away from the Empire and needs to be dealt with quickly. If anything, I could believe that prisoners may have been taken to Fort Neugrad as a matter of routine, and that Tullius on learning Ulfric had been captured, went to Helgen arriving at about the same time the carts did. Guards at Helgen would have seen the carts pass and Tullius simply sent a soldier up the road to turn the carts back to Helgen in order to complete the execution of Ulfric right away and put an end to the rebellion. Having Ulfric in a cell or traveling to Cyrodiil is too risky as a rescue attempt could be made. Tullius just wants to get it over with as soon as possible. As for the other prisoners, including Lokir and the PC, Tullius has no interest in justice or trials or sorting out who is who, his only focus is to just eliminate Ulfric and anyone with him so he (Tullius) can get on with more important issues.

Why would the Imperials travel from Darkwater Crossing through Helgen to Fort Neugrad and then back to Helgen? After the Imperial ambush at Darkwater Crossing, it's possible that the Imperials then took the prisonsers to Fort Neugard for temporay holding until their fate was decieded. If you look on a map the road going west towards Helgen forks just before the gates to the village. So they could've taken the road south to the fort first to join the other prisoners. Then supposedly upon General Tulius's decision, the prisoners were taken to Helgen. Also, remember that in the opening scene of the game there is another carriage ahead of the one Ralof, Lokir, Ulfric, and the Dragonborn are in. So maybe the other Stormcloak prisoners had also been held at Fort Neugard. While I don't think an over night stay at Fort Neugrad occurred,it may be possible, what reasoning or evidence is there to suggest this? The reason I don't think there was any travel other than from the ambush site to Helgen is the initial conversation in the game has no indication that Rolaf has met or knows or has ever spoken to or even seen either the PC or Lokir before meeting them in the cart. Rolaf says, "You're awake" suggesting the PC was asleep or unconscious, so am I to believe the guards picked the PC up from the cell at Fort Neugrad and gently placed the PC in the cart for the trip to Helgen? How long was the PC unconscious or asleep? How would Rolaf and Ulfric not have met the PC while in the cells at Fort Neugrad (even if just over night) or had some conversation prior to the PC waking up? A lot of questions, but no answers, so I ask what evidence or even suggestion is there that any of the prisoners were ever at Fort Neugrad? The entire opening sequence and conversations suggest to me that they were all captured at the ambush at Darkwater Crossing and taken directly to Helgen. The PC was either asleep or unconscious when Ulfric was captured and woke up just as they approached Helgen.

Why would the Imperials travel from Darkwater Crossing through Helgen to Fort Neugrad and then back to Helgen?

At the beginning of the game there are Imperial and Stormcloak camps in the Rift and Eastmarch, but no front lines that could be identified, and certainly none as a "border". The only border in the area of Darkwater Crossing is the border between The Rift and Eastmarch. Where the PC is leaving to isn't an issue, the question is where did the PC cross the border into Skyrim. As far as anyone could possibly tell the PC could have crossed anywhere to enter Skyrim and at any time. The only answer to that question is the story the individual makes up for them self and their game to explain why/how their PC is in Skyrim. The point I have is that the border the PC crossed and was captured is near Darkwater Crossing, not a border between Skyrim and some other province as Rolaf's conversation is clear where the ambush and capture took place - outside Darkwater Crossing.

The only indication in the game is that the PC was captured crossing a border in Skyrim. The assumption that the PC was captured at the same time and same place as Ulfric and the other Stormclocks is just that, an assumption, and a bad one at that. Rolaf says in the wagon, “You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there.” Ralof later says to his sister (Gerdur) in Riverwood, "I can't remember when I last slept... Where to start? Well, the news you heard about Ulfric was true. The Imperials ambushed us outside Darkwater Crossing. Like they knew exactly where we'd be. That was... two days ago, now. It is clearly stated the PC (and Lokir the horse thief) was captured crossing a border in Skyrim. The border is not the Skyrim to Cyrodiil border, but obviously the border from The Rift to Eastmarch, which is just outside of Darkwater Crossing. It is never stated that the PC was captured at the same time or same place as Ulfric and the other Stormcloaks. In fact, the way Rolaf asks, “Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us…” suggests that the PC was captured at a different time, and most likely before Rolaf and Ulfric. Lokir says, "I'm from Rorikstead.", and “I could've stolen that horse and be halfway to Hammerfell.” This suggests that Lokir was in Skyrim and not coming from or going to Cyrodiil as his direction of travel mentioned is NorthWest, not SouthEast, or towards Rorikstead, where he is from. He is a thief and what is in the Riften area… the Thief’s Guild, so why wouldn’t a thief be in that area? Knowing that Riften and the Rift is Stormclock territory as is Eastmarch it is not unusual that Ulfric and a small contingent would be travelling in the territory, probably between Riften and Windhelm. But why would he go to or come from Cyrodiil or Morrowind? However, there are Imperial Camps in Eastmarch and in the Rift that would allow Imperials to gain intelligence of Ulfric’s movements, to scout an area on his route and set up an ambush. As for the PC, the most likely place to have crossed the border between Skyrim and Cyrodiil to have been travelling in the Riften/Eastmarch area would have to have been along the road from the southeast (Morrowind) to Riften as the only other roads from the south (Cyrodiil) is south of Helgen (Pale Pass) or southwest of Falkreath. To suggest the PC crossed over the rough terrain of the mountains between Cyrodiil and Skyrim at Autumnwatch or Arcwindand makes no sense as why would the PC have travelled that way? The PC isn’t sneaking anywhere or trying to avoid anyone, so why wouldn’t the PC just have travelled on the roads like everyone else?

Whenever I play the Civil War quest line (either side) quests always seem to bug where someone either doesn't talk or hasn't got the required conversation. The fix that has always worked for me is to move away from whomever it is you are supposed to talk to (go outside, not inside), save the game, fast travel to the farthest point from where you are (but not into a city), fast travel back. This has never failed to fix the NPC so they have the required conversation and allow the quest line to advance. Hope it works for you.

Sort of a meaningless issue terminology, but I suppose some do require a word that reflects the comfortable prejudices that has been instilled by propaganda – but whatever. In 1969 (my 1st ME tour) the term used was “guerrilla”. In 1985 (my last tour) the term was “terrorist”. Such precise terms don’t seem to matter all that much when someone is trying to kill you, so I usually just used the terms “friendlies” and “hostiles”, but that's just me. While I have no particular issue with the points raised by Xenoshi and do agree with them up to a point, it does raise the question (in my mind anyway) of how much consideration was made by those gathering the information that they were addressing individuals who are fundamentalist Islamic followers. The reason for my question is because the Islamic religion is not simply worship as a social habit such as it is for Christians; it is completely entwined into every aspect of life; from personal hygiene to protecting the environment and is much more linked to politics than it is in other cultures. While I have no specific issue with the stated political reasoning, and do understand it, I have some difficulty with the statement that religious beliefs are irrelevant as it is extremely difficult to separate one from the other in the Islamic world. The Terrorist Perspectives Project: Strategic and Operational Views of Al Qaida and Associated Movements (United States Joint Forces Command), The Canons of Jihad: Terrorists’ Strategy for Defeating America (US Naval Academy) and Culture and Conflict in the Middle East (Philip Carl Salzman) offer a somewhat different view of the integration of political and religious aspects in the ME, but when it gets right down to it, it is just people tired of the negative interference in their lives and culture who are rebelling against it.

I only ever made 11 mods for Oblivion, and pulled them from the Nexus some time ago because of exactly the points you have made. So very few users appreciate mods or modders and too many are so self entitled it’s not even worth the effort to share mods. Modders themselves are not an innocent part of the equation and some are just as bad as the users (not accusing anyone here, but there are some really ignorant modders out there). It is unfortunate that the antics of users have seen so many modders leave and go to other places or just leave all together. While the Nexus offers some protection, it still can be an absolutely horrendous experience to have made and shared a mod that was offered freely and in the spirit of enhancing the community. I do laugh at the “appreciation” aspect that people bring up. That and $5.00 will get me a coffee at Starbucks. One mod I had made had close to 10,000 downloads and a whopping 12 endorsements but better than 100 “How come you didn’t….” and “Why won’t you….” posts and PMs. I didn’t make the mod for anyone but me, but the overwhelming responses were not related to technical issues (the mod worked well and didn’t cause anyone any technical problems that I ever heard of), but the demands for changes and additions and modifications were numerous and demanding and some got very upset because I wouldn’t put their ideas into my mod. The tiny bit of appreciation didn’t do much to offset the frustration and insults that the majority offered. And it hasn’t gotten better, it’s gotten worse. And when it comes right down to it the Nexus isn’t even special any more, it’s become just another website in a list of websites. The “community” that it used to be hasn’t existed for a long time and I doubt it will ever be a community ever again. The bottom line is I guess I understand and can sympathize and support you in your decision. I have found modding for myself and for friends to be a much more pleasurable experience and a lot more fulfilling than sharing mods freely on a website. Given the financial aspects I am tempted to begin modding Skyrim. You’d have to be awfully rich to ignore the opportunity to make a few dollars doing something as easy as making a mod and it seems there are plenty who are willing to buy.

I wish someone would explain what the controversy is all about over paying for mods. I see any number of arguments against it, but none make any sense what so ever. It'll make gaming for rich people? When was gaming ever for the poor? Poor people don't spend hard earned money on a computer, on an internet connection, on games to play or even have the spare time to even consider these things. Any person with all the money and spare time to purchase the equipment and accessories and play games and spend time on the internet isn't poor. There are countless hobbies and hobbyists in the world and the vast majority of them make money selling the creations they make. There are web sites dedicated to hobbyists so they can sell their creations. I even see mods for Skyrim that are for sale on hobby sites. Is everyone who has a hobby limited to only do it for the benefit of the community? That's insane thought. I love the money I make from my hobby. And I certainly don't feel guilty for selling my creations. People get the satisfaction of owning a quality product and I get the satisfaction of making it and earning some cash. Why that should be offensive to anyone is mind boggling. I applaud anyone who makes money from their hobby and wish them all the success in the world at it. I just as heartily applaud those hobbyists who give their creations away for free and wish them all the success it can bring as well. As for the current system on Steam, that's between the modder and Steam and if the modder likes their 25%, all the best to them and I hope they all make a million dollars. And honestly, I cannot figure out why it's an affront to humanity that one hobbyist is earning some well deserved reward in a business arrangement but on the other hand the Nexus web site which is essentially a hobby that makes money through various business arrangements and that's seen as OK. The only difference seems to be that so long as users get all the benefits of a hard working hobbyist for free and someone else is paying, that's great, but when users have to pay for something to a hard working hobbyist, then it's a disaster of biblical proportions. And I do think that the owner of the Nexus is going to deeply regret the decision not to become involved in this right from the start. As for ruining PC gaming or modding, that's the most obtuse idea I've heard in a long time. Did PC gaming get ruined by having to buy games? I got all my games for free when I first got a computer. There were tons of games on bulletin boards that people made and they were all free. It didn't take long before someone started selling their games and that didn't ruin PC gaming. It got bigger and better. Did PC gaming die when DLC came along? People liked DLC and were willing to pay for it and gaming got bigger and better again. Now mods are going to cost and guess what? It's not going to ruin PC gaming either. If anything it's going to make PC gaming better because instead of just being a user, I'll be a consumer and that gives me a voice, just as it did when games started being sold and when DLC started being sold and that helped make PC games bigger and better. The only controversy I have seen is privileged individuals whose sense of entitlement has been hurt because something they got for free might cost them money now. Can't afford to game, well gaming isn't a right, it's a spare time hobby and if you can't afford it then that is your personal problem, not the game companies, not the modders nor anyone else's; just yours. Everyone deserves the recognition they feel is appropriate for the things they create, be it kudos or cash. I think its great that modders have the options.