Terramaris
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In response to post #24887504. #24889644 is also a reply to the same post.@DCFarvahar wrote: I donated recently through the donate button and it was a real hassle (much like renewing my subscription). Would I want to do that for each and every mod author I want to support (could be hundreds).
No.
Also, I don't like being limited to buying them a subscription to the Nexus, which is a minimum of a couple dollars. Some mods deserve a dollar or 2 (the core game can be had for 5). Most mods deserve a few cents (multiplied by hundreds of thousands of users).
This is the ideal system:
1) A wallet system, like Steam has
2) The ability to set the amount you want to donate in cash to the nearest cent
3) the ability to donate to multiple mods at once: a "donate all" button or some such
It would have been nice for the players in this (Valve, Bethesda, and Nexus, and a couple of prominent free modder types) to sit down together and hash out a suitable system that allows people to receive donations in lieu of formal payment.
The system we have now is not acceptable and "drawing a line under it" invites further turmoil.DCWillis wrote: This should be simple. Add an area where the Creator can link a paypal donate button on the mod page.
There already is? Unless you are referring to Workshop. -
In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094 are all replies on the same post.Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.
When will it end? Are we just in a cycle or arguing?WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.
This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.
@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.
Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.
This is not over yet.thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.
If you've moved on - fine, move on. -
In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584 are all replies on the same post.It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.
This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.
@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire. -
>Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.
When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?
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In response to post #24871519."Tomorrow is a new day, and New Modders will be born."jennawatson wrote: No doubt that at a glance, it looked to me like someone was trying to saw off the legs of the chair that nexus was sitting in. Taking away the best modders, for money, would have caused people to settle for more lower quality, or fewer good quality, mods. As a result, it would have destabilized The Nexus, over time.
Nexus is providing increasingly better content, in many respects, than some of the for-profit gaming businesses.
Now we are forced to reflect upon what was in our minds when that happened, and make the choice to do what is "right" in the interest of the majority.
Tomorrow is a new day, and New Modders will be born.
So it seems we will have to wait about 15 or so years for those New Modders to have the physical maturity to make mods then. Nexus 2030, here we come! -
Darn, I had a 500+ word draft on my computer about how to implement a Paetron system into Nexus, and was interviewing modders to get their opinions before I post the thread. Since it is up to Bethesda, I believe I will not be needing to post it anymore. Seems redundant if you already agree with it.
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Almost 2000 comments, mods are hidden on here due to anti-anti-paywall boycott, hot files being anti-paywall boycott propaganda instead of good mods...
Where does it end? Let us say Paywalls are back on Workshop tomorrow: we will have another boycott, when it is removed the Paywallers will counter boycott. What I am trying to say is when will we heal? Last month we were a tight nit community, capable of some real heart warming things... does anyone remember when we made "Bear - In memory of Taylor" file of the month? That moved me to tears, showed how compassionate we could be.
Now look at us, what is our end result going to be? An endless circle of boycotts that ends with us forever torn asunder??? Now I hold blame too, I went from eighty posts last week to about two hundred something just from trying to spread the boycott gospel. I give up though. I am now officially boycotting boycotting, and I urge you lot to do the same. We were divided, but now we need to reconcile. So thats it, I am out and I am hoping others come with. Feel free to neg vote me, ignore this post, whatever. I wont stop ya... I did enough debating last week to last me a life time.
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In response to post #24839629.Not at all, anyone who calls you a leacher would be delusional. You done more than most people by getting a premium tag. You are supporting the #1 mod download site for the Elder Scrolls series.stomby wrote: Question. Love playing computer games been doing it since, well long time. Im knocking on 50 and still really dont know that much about computers other than their basic functions. There is probably no way i will ever make a mod. Hats off to all of you who can! It makes the enjoyment of my games all that much better. I try to be premium member to Nexus when I can and endorse the mods I download and like, thinking this helps the modding community alittle anyways. I dont comment or really contribute any other way so it sounds like i would be a leech. Should I not use this site anymore or what?
If you are a leach, then I definitely am one. -
In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894 are all replies on the same post.@Fosterlereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.
Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.
We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl
It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.
What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?
Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.
Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?
You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.
Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.
SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."
This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.blackasm wrote: so true foster xblfoster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wowlereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?
Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"
So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.
Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.
TypicalCaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed themsunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.
With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:
Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".
If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".
As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.
They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.
So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
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So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.
My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available. -
In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959, #24813484, #24818104, #24818664, #24818959, #24820849, #24824549, #24826069 are all replies on the same post.@Dragonchidosity wrote: My disgust with Valve and Bethesda has been replaced with a broken heart after reading the responses from prominent modders such as FavoredSoul.
I have been modding video games since Quake. I have modded over 100 games. My Skyrim Mods are minor, but still took some time to create.
Never in a million years would I think of charging for these mods, or any mod. I have been a part of total conversion projects that all told accounted for thousands of man-hours of development time.
Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.
Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit.
You are a disease on this community. Myself, and thousands of others, have been happily donating our time to provide content for the games we love for over 20 years, needing nothing but a "thanks" once in a while. This community has survived on the fuel of good will for it's entire life-span, and will continue to survive in the face of your misguided sense of entitlement and greed.
Our community is so much better without modders that require financial compensation for their time and talent. When you go, a thousand young bright minds will replace you. Modding is a stepping stone to games development if you choose. If you choose not to go the route of professional games developer, then you do not need to be financially compensated. We mod because it brings us joy. You soil us all with your delusions of grandeur.Brasscatcher wrote: And if they don't like it, they can hit the bricks. Right on, chido!FavoredSoul wrote: You totally missed the point of my post.
95% of my discontent had to do with the simple fact that this "issue" has brought to the surface, such a disgusting amount of hate that I never knew existed, or was even possible. And why?
Did I even have any mods for sale? No. Only about 15 people were even part of the program, let me repeat that, *FIFTEEN*, so for people like you to say that people like me are greedy and entitled, when we DIDN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING, that's the truly heart breaking part.
I was merely upset and disappointed over the fact that, for the briefest moment, the POSSIBILITY of some kind of return system existed, and it was so vilified, and so hated, that you guys decided to make, in large part, the mod-authors the target of that hate, and not bethesda and valve who were the ones that CREATED IT.
So again, when people like you say to people like me, "good riddance we don't need you", it just proves how disposable you think we are. You're happy to use our mods when we're offering, and just as readily are willing to throw us away without a second thought. You take us for granted, and that makes you nothing else but a selfish individual. And you say that I am the one with the disease?
I would say that anybody who posts comments like that, filled with hate, is the one with the disease. I haven't done anything. I didn't pull my mods from the Nexus. I didn't put any mods behind a paywall. Where did all this hate come from?Musicdude132 wrote: "Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.
Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit."
Well said.
I haven't been following this debacle, but I have seen some modders attacking users for "taking away their dream of making money off of mods" and in response will no longer be uploading free mods any more. How childish.WightMage wrote: Personally, I think modders should be compensated at some point, but I agree that the end goal of modding should not be financial, for reasons stated over the past three news threads.WightMage wrote: FavoredSoul, I get that the modders who joined the initial program (and were subsequently burned, both by users and Valve/Bethesda) were for the most part wrongly attacked, but I'm honestly confused as to how you can believe that mod-authors were vilified alone.
I've been watching these comments threads for six days too long, and from what I've seen, the hatred has passed from Valve/Bethesda, to SPECIFIC mod authors, back to Valve, back to Bethesda, stayed with Bethesda, back to Valve, and now that the system is dead, focused on mod users, many of whom were in fact DEFENDING the right of mod authors to get paid if they so wished. When people started attacking *you*, it was because you posted a reply that attacked mod users, who in turn thought that *you* were being entitled.
Do you see the problem here? This isn't helping anything. Anytime anyone creates a large post written entirely in the spirit of passion infused hatred, it just brews more hatred and we hear each other even less and less and yell more and more in response to being heard less.
It's only getting worse, and everyone involved with this riot mongering is culpable, even the OP of this thread. But from what I gather, he and several others like him only posted this because he felt he was being attacked, just as you did originally.
TL;DR, we all seriously need to get a drink together and talk about s#*! without throwing glasses at each other's face.sunshinenbrick wrote: I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills.
A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others.
Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually.
Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with.
That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;Dsvanderwerf wrote: this is pretty much my entire problem with Valve's handing of this clusterfeic
They took an existing and very healthy community and did the one thing absolutely guaranteed to cause an ideological war. The level of mismanagement is staggering, and I'll be amazed if whoever was responsible for this debacle still has a job.Wolvenlight wrote: Chido, I have to take FavoredSouls side here. Regardless of whether or not paid modding was a good idea overall, (and I personally think it wasn't,) the consumer portion of the Nexus was far more filled with extreme vitriol and hatred towards the paid authors, people who have given so much for free already. Very few mod authors who tried the paid workshop actually cared enough about being compensated to the point they wouldn't have modded in the first place. When presented with the option, they tried it. It did okay for some but ultimately failed. Many of them accepted that gracefully. Heck, it was always a possibility, quite a few games allow mods to be sold. Bethesda could always make that choice, and you know this is true, because they just did. However brief it was. And if your motivation is experience and a portfolio, then money is your motivation, simple as that.
When people like you attack them, calling them entitled brats, a disease, tell them how they should think, why they should do modding, (or anything,) as if you own the very concept... coming off to others as if you think you're so much better than them because you do it for free? (Not to be confused with "for nothing.") You prove everything the paid authors say against you and the people who first started this "war." Especially because you attacked first. I don't care how many mods you've made. I've never made one in my life and I'm on the paid authors side here. You think they're delusional? We don't need your mods either. We don't need you. Bethesda doesn't need you. There will always be other people. Your opinion isn't automatically better because you've made mods for free, or at all.
Also, no, nobody is going to replace them when they leave. People will come and go as they always have, but only you and your kind have chased good people away by being so dead set against not the system for it's flaws, but the innocent people who did nothing but fall outside your banner. We have lost their mods, their ideas, their concepts and assets because of the horrible things said by people like you. I like free mods, but I like fair, kind people a lot more. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a smaller more expensive modding community than a hate filled one. (Neither exist, but hey.)
Enough is enough. It's fine if you think it's a bad idea. Discuss it's flaws, rail against Bethesda, be logical, convince people. Don't hurt innocent people, and don't let jerks goad you.
Also, please learn how to use the word "entitled" correctly. I haven't seen anyone use it right once this entire fiasco.Xazomn wrote: I would never pay for mods. Games and dlc's are expensive enough , let us not talk about cut to pieces micro dlc's for just a weapon or outfit. Why should i pay for mods that fix bugs that had to be solved by the game creator in the first place .
Most mods are made for themselfs they like to share, for the fun, for learning experience, realy,i wont pay for that.
Mods making my game intresting, sure , mods make the gameplay very intresting and makes me play longer with my games just like Skyrim . That game is 4 years now, other games even older. New games don't stay new. Why should i pay for mods that keep my old game intresting. If i need to pay 200 dollars for mods to keep a 4 year old game fun to play or even keep using mods that i already used and sudden need to pay for, well simple as that, i would buy a new game and put the rest into my pc and nothing into a old game and the mods.
As modder, for me it is the fun i got with the community, the learning experiences i get , i can show my thoughts,feelings ideas . I share my mods as others share them. To see my mods used in stories,comics or screens or companion mods means more to me then money.MetalGearModder1155 wrote: You'll never know what you have until you don't have it anymore.
It's mainly to make a point about how, when an opportunity to make money vanished, people will complain, crash, and burn about how unfair it was that it was taken away... even if they were totally fine with pay-less modding, just to put on their resumé.
The same thing with the people who USE the mods... they have free mods from absurdly kind people in the community, but they don't even donate. What [else] happens (aside from the concern of crappy, low-quality content that might not even work) when that gets taken away? An uprising, and people LEARN what they had, as it's been taken away.
Personally, I'm too warm-hearted plenty of the time, so I end up feeling so bad when some good modder, such as FavoredSoul, gets up and leaves because no-one was appreciating them for their hard work. (AGAIN, Steam. Donate button, custom message from author. That'd fix so much.)
Yet, people don't seem to get that it was their fault for not actually giving credit to good modders for their work. Instead, when the modder even THINKS of taking advantage of the new system, they get bashed and beaten for wanting to feel accomplished for their work, thanks to worthless stacks of green paper.
May sound trite: but give damn credit where it's deserved. I mean, come on, SKSE and SkyUI both are very well-done. The SkyUI is eye-pleasing, fancy, and it's not terribly clunky either. SKSE... it allows you to create mods, basically.
Also, alter account was lost. Don't mind the post history.Dragonfire12 wrote: Bethesda and Valve just killed the Goose that lays the Golden Egg. Modding has kept Skyrim and Oblivion, even Morowind, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, alive longer than they would have been otherwise. This means more sales of the games and DLC's. In that respect Bethesda has made money on modding.
I can understand Bethesda's motivations. It was Greed, they wanted to pocket some extra cash, from mod authors, plain and simple.
Funny thing about killing the Goose that Lays the Golden Egg. There is never any profit in it. Bethesda and Valve will never be able to undo what they have done. They have torn the modding community apart and set them against each other. Not only that, the rift will not have healed when Bethesda rolls out Fallout 4.
This has cost those fools money. The Goose is dead...sunshinenbrick wrote: @ Dragonfire12
@ Xazomn
These are points very well made.CaladanAnduril wrote: Your disgusting comment only prove how much "professional " jealousy could be between modders.
I'm also modding games from the Quake era but it NEVER occurred into my mind to blame others for their decisions.
You say, quote
"... thousand young bright minds will replace you " end of quote.
It ever occured in your mind that the young brilliant modders will also read your comment?
And maybe, just maybe, they will be not so happy to replace the loss?... being so brilliant? and seeing the treatment of a modder to another fellow modder?
And above all... you totally missed the point of FavoredSoul, you just used his statement to make some advertising to your "reputation", who knows, maybe someone will remember you, if they are not already forgotten you as a modder.
Again, just hate and hypocrisy...
The goose is dead indeed. Been stalking hot files, and to be honest nothing really new is on there. You have 3 boycott mods and an upload of Purity (which is a combination of files we already had on Nexus). Only 2 new mods as the Serena one and Double Jump.
I feel as if the modders have packed up. While I agreed with the boycott, the sheer venom I believe killed what they were defending. Sure, paid mods are gone. It seems free mods though are gone as well...
Could just be a slow week and I am over exaggerating too. -
In response to post #24784099. #24784289, #24785139, #24810294, #24811099, #24812869, #24813719, #24813764 are all replies on the same post.Posting here so I can save this quote on my profile. Amazingly written.ReconTA wrote: I'm going to post a segment of a comment left by a user on the Bethesda Blog, written in response to the 'Why we’re trying paid Skyrim mods on Steam' article. He goes by the name of JasonJones, and I think he sums up the biggest problem with the system far better then I can. It is a bit of a wall of text, but it hits the nail on the head.
Comment starts here:
1. Bethesda games (TES/Fallout) are not modded like games like Countre Strike, DAYZ and GTA. This comparison must be STOPPED.
Gary’s mod is NOT like a Skyrim mod that adds a SWORD…
Even a Skyrim total conversion mod will either use resources from other mods or must be made in a way that it is compatible with other mods. This requires ACCESS to how those mods were made and some of the code used. This means modders must be working together, sharing and collaborating with each other. Something not required even a LITTLE by “gary’s mod”…
This does not happen often in other games outside of the Sims community and also the Mount and Blade community.
2. Paid mods are not new. They have a long history…and in that long history they have torn large modding communities apart. Modders stop sharing, they stop collaborating and they start working against each other as other mods are then seen as competition.
The sims 2 community was the single largest community in HISTORY. The game had more mods than Skyrim/Oblivion/and the Fallout games combined. Once several modders started selling their mods and stopped sharing their resources it split the community apart as more and more started doing it…and then the attacks started. Blacklisting leading to groups targeting other modders hosts with tons of complaints getting sites taken down…personal LAWSUITS claiming the stealing of ideas. People taking someone else’s mods and selling them on their own sites…
The only reason the community survived the madness was due to the Mod the Sims site that stayed free and promoted sharing and collaborations.
Spore…a game made around the very idea that players would CREATE the majority of the game. EA had a website for the mods with a pay option…and that game was trashed by modders attacking each other to limit competition…mods being reported for “looking” like another claiming ideas were being copied. Needless to say, the game never lived up to its potential.
It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future.
That mod…the single most important mod due to other mods being integrated with it, namely MCM…which so many other mods use to allow their mods to have settings that can be changed by users…and many of those makers then stating they will be making updates to their mods to deliberately NOT work with the future SkyUI.
Instantly we had a virtual NIGHTMARE for modders and mod users.
The community had already split, lines were drawn…modders no longer working WITH each other. Even more placing disclaimers on their mods stating they will NOT share their resources with anyone making a pay mod. Again, lines drawn and the entire community taking a hit because that meant even more mods WONT be made because new resources are being held onto instead of being shared.
You cannot do something like this to a game like Skyrim where a person can actually COMPLAIN about 255 mods allowed to be used at one time being NOT ENOUGH…something you will never hear with the other games this move was being compared to…hell, many of those FPS games don’t even have 250 mods total and those that do use mods for those games rarely use more than a few at a time. This means there is no need for a modding community to be working together so their mods don’t conflict with each other with those games…and paid mods wont affect a thing.bullpcp wrote: "It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future."
I would just like to point out that this modder would not have otherwise updated his mod at all. Essentially the paid for option presented a mod that otherwise would not have existed.Wolvenlight wrote: These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.ReconTA wrote: @bullpcp Well the mod is already next to perfect, so the benefits of that are negligible, and compared to the damage it would cause... definitely not worth it.WightMage wrote: Probably one of the better posts on this topic.Thoragoros wrote: That about sums it up.
Very good points.jediakyrol wrote: Thank you...I thought I was the only one who remembered the SIMS debacle. My first words on this were "Here we f*ing go again!"
but really...it's like every 5 years mods get mixed with money and everyone loses...Doom with D!Zone, the SIMS web-store crap, the Spore "player created content" crap, now this. so...a few years from now, someone'll try it again, another modding community will tear itself apart, and we'll enter the waiting cycle again.sunshinenbrick wrote:In response to post #24784099. #24784289, #24785139, #24810294, #24811099, #24812869, #24813719 are all replies on the same post.ReconTA wrote:bullpcp wrote: "It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future."
I would just like to point out that this modder would not have otherwise updated his mod at all. Essentially the paid for option presented a mod that otherwise would not have existed.Wolvenlight wrote: These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.ReconTA wrote: @bullpcp Well the mod is already next to perfect, so the benefits of that are negligible, and compared to the damage it would cause... definitely not worth it.WightMage wrote: Probably one of the better posts on this topic.Thoragoros wrote: That about sums it up.
Very good points.jediakyrol wrote: Thank you...I thought I was the only one who remembered the SIMS debacle. My first words on this were "Here we f*ing go again!"
but really...it's like every 5 years mods get mixed with money and everyone loses...Doom with D!Zone, the SIMS web-store crap, the Spore "player created content" crap, now this. so...a few years from now, someone'll try it again, another modding community will tear itself apart, and we'll enter the waiting cycle again.This really can boil down to lack of action on Bethesda's part.
Standalone mods for sale is not really so much of an issue as the market will level out, although quality checks and copyright is critically important. This will also allow the free modding community to stay alive because some modders will not (want to) meet these standards.EDIT: Whoa! Let's not forget the fact that every computer is different... imagine the customer support levels involved with that! Phew!
The real problem as I see it is mods, like SKYUI, are essential for many other mods to function. Official DLC does split the community into threads as some people will own them or not, as in my case. This is bearable and can create diversity and experimentation, and is still based on choice providing the original release is fully functional on its own.SkyUI is different because it is part of the fundamental game design and functionality.
Example: I want Mod B but this requires Mod A. Mod C needs Mod B. So now I end up having to buy Mod A and Mod B just to use Mod C. See how this traps the player into a cycle of hidden costs to playing their games.
Factor in the online aspirations of companies it may mean that one player cannot play against another player... without spending money that was not part of the original contract the customer had with the developer. Yes the Sale of Goods Act, EULA and TOC must protect the Developer AND the Customer. Bethesda already ride a bumpy road on this issue as it is debatable their games are ready for release as it is.
What Bethesda should have done is offer a contract to either employ or buy the SkyUI project in order to incorporate it into a patch that was then distributed to players for free. This way the people who made the mod are happy and everyone else sees the ultimate fruit of a collective effort.EDIT: In retrospect, regarding DLC such as Hearthfire, it could be argued that Bethesda owe some Intellectual Property down payments to many modders who helped them come up with the idea. Just a thought.
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What part of this is not real?
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In response to post #24806924. #24807009, #24807074 are all replies on the same post.@MarstonnPatriotlegend wrote:sunshinenbrick wrote: I think this was a common fear for further down the road. I was going to mention the fact that $1, which many people seem to laugh at, is A LOT of money in other parts of the world. Thank you for speaking up and sharing this point of view from first hand experience.Marstonn wrote: Look this wall, the paywall was much better =/
I would support paywalls if 5% of the revenue went to mandatory enter key awareness lessons. xD -
Even compared to the internet's usual response, the backlash was still severe.
Now you support paid mods because, and I quote, "i believe in rewarding people for their effort. ". Would you support alternative ways (not talking about donations) of supporting modders rather than paywalling mods? -
In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754 are all replies on the same post.@Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.DaddyDirection wrote:greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745
The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.
Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.
I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.
If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/
While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.
Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.
Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.
Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."
Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.
The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^
It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)
And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.
Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.
The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.
The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^
It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)
And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."
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In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969, #24804034, #24804529, #24804714 are all replies on the same post.Uber, this assumes that the sales would remain constant, or wouldn't decrease greatly (not to mention the controversy helped boost sales). Do not forget that Purity, Arissa, Wet and Cold. They were already made mods with a bit extra tacked on. The opportunity cost for that was low enough so that it was profitable. The maths doesn't lie:retakrew7 wrote:UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."
-Bethesda Game Studios
Donations don't work.Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.
Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.
Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.
Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.
The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).
What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.
"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."
-Bethesda Game Studios
I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.
Donations don't work.freedom613 wrote: Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.
1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?
If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.
2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.
Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?
Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.
3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.
4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.
5. Income tax.
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As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law).beewyka819 wrote: Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.greggorypeccary wrote: beewyka819 said.
Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.
Ah ha!! now you're talkin'sunshinenbrick wrote: "...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."
They actually said this???
You do realise with that statement they are probably saying that modders will be doing more WORK than the original developers. Do people not see this?UberSmaug wrote: @freedom613. you have some valid points but I still feel you are underestimating the potential here. Yes there are cost involved, its call overhead. "1,570 to make a simple sword". But why would you stop after making just one sword. License is a one time fee to make many product that will pay out over time. Every new mod you produce has the potential for profit. Could you fall flat on your face in failure. Sure. There is risk in business. Still the decision to make that risk should be left to the individual mod author should it not. Regurdless I was responding to the fact that people are saying Donations work leave it alone.
Donations do not work.
Even top modders against paid mods have said as much.
I disagree that money will end all collaboration. Nothing would stop Authors from making deals to share profits in exchange for using each others assets. You would just have to ask.freedom613 wrote: That 1,470$ is per year by the way. So in order to profit, you need to make $1,570 a year and that is if you are just a 3d modeler. I am not factoring in any other products you need to licence.
I went on a tangent some where here on how modding is profitable (with all these conversations on four different forums and threads, I get lost with what I posted) for big projects, so the future of 3rd party DLC is going to be whatever gives the most return on investment when you factor in opportunity cost and the fixed total costs: simple items. Giant mods such as companions, quests, and the such are not profitable in the long run due to fees you have to pay to your team, and that it would take less time and earn you a bigger ROI just to make items. I go on more about this earlier in the thread, point being: Is that the future of 3rd Party DLC that we want?
To be honest, if mods are going to be behind a paywall, I would rather them go the route of Insurgency and Team Fortress 2 and the like and get financed by a big company and I buy the mod knowing it will have good quality and will be compatible with the rest of my products.sunshinenbrick wrote: I don't think playing games should be a business. There are already enough things in the world to spend money on and enough blurring of the lines between leisure and work.UberSmaug wrote: Again, Purity made over $1000 in 5 days. some of the armor and swords had already made $800-$1000. In 5 days. That cost would have been covered in no time at all. people could continue to make large mods for free if they wish.blackasm wrote: if you are looking for donations you are better off beggin on the side of the road. 100 000 downloads = 1 donation, a number of bums I give change to I know do better than that.
Why spent 3 months making a companion mod that will net you $1000 when you can spend 3 months making a dozen swords that would net you $100 each? -
In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194, #24803479, #24803744, #24803784, #24803814, #24804154, #24804314, #24804509, #24804619, #24804724, #24805034 are all replies on the same post."The long and short of your stance is simply that you don't want this opportunity to exist to mod authors."Axeface wrote:freedom613 wrote: Well done story but it forgets to factor in:
-Licencing (Most free modeling software do not let you sell work made on it, you need to fork out a grand for the full version).
-Lack of quality assurance (someone on imgur reviewed all the paid mods, needless to say, most of their quality was lacking and there were bugs galore)
-Risk of modder who stops supporting his/her mod incase an update breaks it.
-Incompatibility between mods
I could go on, but I believe I made my point. The issue goes far beyond "I want to make money off my work" and "I do not want to pay a dime for a mod". Best not to use a strawman when making a point.Axeface wrote: "Licensing" - irrelevant. It isn't your job, bethesdas or valves to police modders.
"Quality" - Agreed yet subjective, this is why they should have made it curated. But this was an experiment with that exact aim, to see what it's like if it isn't, imho. But we didnt even get to see what would happen, and were unfortunately inundated by troll mods in the 'review' section.
"Risk/Incompatibility" - As above, and irrelevant. It isn't up to you to tell people where to spend their money. There is risk in everything.
Yes the issue goes beyond, will have problems, and the implimentation had major issues. But to deny modders the chance... well.freedom613 wrote: -How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits.
-I would link the imgur article so I could show you the lack of quality of the mods (and I am talking in a "early access" lack of quality, not the textures could have been done a bit better lack of quality) but it credit's a skyrim mod piracy site. For the sake of the rules, I cannot link the photos on imgur, so I will summarise the findings:
-badly ported dota swords with grips so big that your hands clip through them + no proper shading at all.
-Most items had no inventory models, or only had a model for a single gender.
That is just a handful of the findings.
-This goes beyond a risk. If I paid for something, I want it to work. If it doesn't work, I want a refund. The fact that a modder could make a mod, have it break in an update, and I would be out of luck is absurd. How you not see this problem, and especially the licencing, as a problem boggles the mind.Axeface wrote: "-How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits."
It is irrelevant to you, the buyer, completely.
And you could get a refund, for 24 hours. Yes, it should NOT have been in steam wallet money, if that rumour is true. Yet another issue, but not a reason to refuse the system altogether.freedom613 wrote: So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think, especially from someone condemning the other camp as selfish. In any case, I posted some problems with paid mods, not some problems buying paid mods. So my point is relevant and stands. I wont even get into the problems with 24 hour refund (and yes, the rumour is true).Axeface wrote: "So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think"
What on earth are you talking about?
Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.
No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours.freedom613 wrote: "Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.
No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours."
Let me clarify my stance then: I am in favour of using the right tool for the job in every industry to benefit both producer and consumer. Paywalling is good for some industries, such as the purchasing of physical items, but it doesn't make much sense in mass-consumption digital industries, such as Youtube and modding.
The best scenario would be to mimic Youtube's model of buisness. Patreon, Ad Revenue, Sponserships. Each of those cost the consumer nothing but time and optional fiscal transactions.
Now you say I should let people self determine. Perhaps it is my LEO background, but I am not going to someone self-determine themselves into breaking a law.dragnipura wrote: @Axeface is completely right. Most people simply do not understand (or underestimate) the legal cesspool beneath this endeavour. Everyone is completely focussing on the relation modcreators/downloader, but that is the LEAST important bit here! There are serious legal issues with this system. Most creators do not comprehend what kind of liability they're taking on when asking money for their mods:
- possible liability for non-conformity - do not forget that especially European laws are
strict on this point.
- possible trouble with national revenue laws: in some countries your obliged to list extra
income as soon as it passes a annual minimum (in some countries not even a couple of
hundred bucks)
- possible copyright infringement - many modcreators use parts or have based their material on freeware third party assets - no problem when you're doing it for free, but
in some countries as soon as you charge money for it, your possibly guilty of unlawful enrichment.
- possible copyright infringement - I think I'm right in saying that most modcreators use freeware versions of 3D or painting programs. That's cool, but as soon as you charge
money for stuff you've created with their programs (like 3ds-max and Adobe Photoshop)
you're in trouble. That's only allowed when you've paid for their programs.
- the biggest question of all is who will be liable in the end. In some countries (most European and the US) one could make a point that Valve (as gateway and distributor)
have misled, or neglected to properly inform the participants of their legal rights and obligations. In some countries this can easily be circumvented by making the participant (digitally) acknowledging they've been informed of their rights with one single click, but for many countries that's not enough. Especially when the participant is a drop dead normal consumer. I can garantee that current and future European laws are quite hellbent on this.
There are other (minor) legal issues, but these I find the most pressing.
And let us not forget: most of the money would've gone to Valve/Bethesda - this was (as far as I'm concerned) just a corporate attempt to gain profit from modding and control over the entire modding scene. The modcreators were duped. Given a few pennies, whilst the Bethesda/Valve got the bucks, and now it's gone tits up and its the creators who get trolled.sunshinenbrick wrote: Can I make swords in your forge?
For 2.99 you can.freedom613 wrote: @Dragn
Perhaps I misread your post, but it seems you are agreeing with me rather than Axe. Axe doesn't care about the legal ramifications from what I gathered.Axeface wrote: Yes I think he was replying to you.
And no, I dont care about legal ramifications. If someone is stupid enough to release a LOTR mod with a model from Shadow of Mordor, while using a copy of zbrush that he didnt pay for then so be it. He is an idiot. It isnt your place, or mine, or anyones other than the companies he has wronged to police him.sunshinenbrick wrote: I work in schools and I am not lying when I say there is a lack of focus on copyright, law and personal rights. A lot of young people do not understand this as they just Google it and pick and choose what they want By the time they leave school the rules have changed. Then they go on sites like this one see free content/money but have little to no idea where it actually comes from, the cost involved (time, effort and money) and just consume, consume, consume.
People are not idiots just because they do not know things. Sometimes companies prefer them that way, ask less questions, just give us the money and all will be well.Axeface wrote: Well, yeh I see your point on that. I guess it's yet another reason why it should be curated, something I very much believe.
I myself have nephews who are ignorant to this stuff, I often have to help them with it. Youtube videos and things that they use.ChizFoShiz wrote: While not eloquent, he's right. The onus for any of the legal ramifications is on the seller not the consumer.
This is exactly the same as people trying to justify their behaviour by arguing "it's the split that's not right!! We did this for you man!"
If any of you bothered to go read Bethesda, valve, arthmoor or anyone else involveds articles or blog posts you'd be aware of the legal teams involved and the investments made in this system.
The long and short of your stance is simply that you don't want this opportunity to exist to mod authors.sunshinenbrick wrote: Curated mods is definitely the model I would promote (in addition to donations here on the Nexus). This would entail that less mods could benefit from the system because the process would become more selective. There are no easy answers to this and each method has its advantages and disadvantages. These are what all these discussions are for, I only hope those on high consider this and don't just go ahead with what they think is best for us... and their pockets.
Well it is obvious from my posts that I am pro-boycott, and if anyone was confused by my stance then I apologise for not being clearer.
Now your quote feels like it has an implied "... because you don't want to spend money" tacked on at the end, am I correct in the assumption? -
In response to post #24800994. #24801184, #24802944, #24803524, #24805704, #24805869 are all replies on the same post.@ChizHarbringe wrote:greggorypeccary wrote: I understand what you are saying but...
It's an excuse. Talk to modders, we know that a donation is rare indeed. Most people don't see why they should even want to. Just read what is said here below. A lot of people figure that they paid to be a member and that entitles them free mods so that is that. I didn't expect them and was not disappointed. I made my mod for free and knew it but ....not again. I don't mind being generous, I don't like being used. I'm not talking about just the community here. There is big money involved even without your donations.blackasm wrote: That is my exact sentiment gerggorypeccary, I didn't mind doing it for free, because frankly I didn't put much effort into modding what with actually trying to make a living off of my skills. It is a shame all of the talented authors who basically built the hobby we have come to enjoy are now relegated to nothing more than street performers now and forever, their time being labeled worthless by their so called fans. Literally money is value, its a lesson every artist has to go through, it is literally the difference between starving artist and professional. Some people might say that is greedy and talk about the illuminati, but even without a federal reserve or whatever people still gotta eat and trade their skills to do so. Artists sadly devalue themselves constantly, and so I try not to support anywhere that I feel takes advantage of those foolish and unknowing artists. Nexus I don't feel in any way took advantage of artists although it of course profits solely from the hard work of those artists free efforts, but I do feel that the community has by essentially saying they should not have the right to sell.
Of course it is up to Bethesda to decide not to have paid mods, but not the consumers. I made a promise to myself along time ago that I would not do work where it is not valued be it a lack of appreciation from someone or money from a client. This lack of appreciation in all of my years as an artist I have never felt so greatly as have in these last few days. literally the marketplace for digital creatives is awfully narrow with few jobs and thousands of artists, this could have set a new precedence. Remember those companies you love to demonize are pretty much the companies that made your mods possible, in a world full of EA's valve and Bethesda are champions. Those authors that were greedy by coming back and making new perfected updates to their mods for a price built the hobby you are so entitled to a lot of them foolishly doing it for some fool dream of exposure. I am thankful now more than ever that I did not waste any more time on this hobby as I got better s#*! to do.freedom613 wrote: Blackasm, not everyone on the boycott wants to turn modders to, as you put it, street preformers. We just do not agree paywalling the best way to go about it. Youtubers are able to make money without me having to pay any money besides my internet connection, so paywalls are not the only option.
Why hammer in a screw, if you have a screw driver? Use the right tool for each situation.ChizFoShiz wrote: Stop using YouTube as since example of a working system, a mod author is unlikely to upload 30 files a week to get any kind of decent revenue.
Why do you think all the popular youtubers run several accounts at once? How many views do you think are generated from garbage shock titles and misleading thumbnails alone?
It's not an appropriate comparison so please stop making it.macintroll wrote: quote : "Stop using YouTube as since example of a working system, a mod author is unlikely to upload 30 files a week to get any kind of decent revenue.
Why do you think all the popular youtubers run several accounts at once? How many views do you think are generated from garbage shock titles and misleading thumbnails alone?
It's not an appropriate comparison so please stop making it."
Why not appropriate ?
It's still better than paying for downloading mods i think. I also think you don't know how much can be gain from youtube ads earnings.
What does quantity of mods uploaded have to do with Paetron? Speaking from my experience in the Minecraft Modding community, the modders who have Paetron there do not upload a large quantity of files. -
In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194, #24803479, #24803744, #24803784, #24803814 are all replies on the same post.@DragnAxeface wrote:freedom613 wrote: Well done story but it forgets to factor in:
-Licencing (Most free modeling software do not let you sell work made on it, you need to fork out a grand for the full version).
-Lack of quality assurance (someone on imgur reviewed all the paid mods, needless to say, most of their quality was lacking and there were bugs galore)
-Risk of modder who stops supporting his/her mod incase an update breaks it.
-Incompatibility between mods
I could go on, but I believe I made my point. The issue goes far beyond "I want to make money off my work" and "I do not want to pay a dime for a mod". Best not to use a strawman when making a point.Axeface wrote: "Licensing" - irrelevant. It isn't your job, bethesdas or valves to police modders.
"Quality" - Agreed yet subjective, this is why they should have made it curated. But this was an experiment with that exact aim, to see what it's like if it isn't, imho. But we didnt even get to see what would happen, and were unfortunately inundated by troll mods in the 'review' section.
"Risk/Incompatibility" - As above, and irrelevant. It isn't up to you to tell people where to spend their money. There is risk in everything.
Yes the issue goes beyond, will have problems, and the implimentation had major issues. But to deny modders the chance... well.freedom613 wrote: -How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits.
-I would link the imgur article so I could show you the lack of quality of the mods (and I am talking in a "early access" lack of quality, not the textures could have been done a bit better lack of quality) but it credit's a skyrim mod piracy site. For the sake of the rules, I cannot link the photos on imgur, so I will summarise the findings:
-badly ported dota swords with grips so big that your hands clip through them + no proper shading at all.
-Most items had no inventory models, or only had a model for a single gender.
That is just a handful of the findings.
-This goes beyond a risk. If I paid for something, I want it to work. If it doesn't work, I want a refund. The fact that a modder could make a mod, have it break in an update, and I would be out of luck is absurd. How you not see this problem, and especially the licencing, as a problem boggles the mind.Axeface wrote: "-How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits."
It is irrelevant to you, the buyer, completely.
And you could get a refund, for 24 hours. Yes, it should NOT have been in steam wallet money, if that rumour is true. Yet another issue, but not a reason to refuse the system altogether.freedom613 wrote: So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think, especially from someone condemning the other camp as selfish. In any case, I posted some problems with paid mods, not some problems buying paid mods. So my point is relevant and stands. I wont even get into the problems with 24 hour refund (and yes, the rumour is true).Axeface wrote: "So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think"
What on earth are you talking about?
Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.
No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours.freedom613 wrote: "Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.
No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours."
Let me clarify my stance then: I am in favour of using the right tool for the job in every industry to benefit both producer and consumer. Paywalling is good for some industries, such as the purchasing of physical items, but it doesn't make much sense in mass-consumption digital industries, such as Youtube and modding.
The best scenario would be to mimic Youtube's model of buisness. Patreon, Ad Revenue, Sponserships. Each of those cost the consumer nothing but time and optional fiscal transactions.
Now you say I should let people self determine. Perhaps it is my LEO background, but I am not going to someone self-determine themselves into breaking a law.dragnipura wrote: @Axeface is completely right. Most people simply do not understand (or underestimate) the legal cesspool beneath this endeavour. Everyone is completely focussing on the relation modcreators/downloader, but that is the LEAST important bit here! There are serious legal issues with this system. Most creators do not comprehend what kind of liability they're taking on when asking money for their mods:
- possible liability for non-conformity - do not forget that especially European laws are
strict on this point.
- possible trouble with national revenue laws: in some countries your obliged to list extra
income as soon as it passes a annual minimum (in some countries not even a couple of
hundred bucks)
- possible copyright infringement - many modcreators use parts or have based their material on freeware third party assets - no problem when you're doing it for free, but
in some countries as soon as you charge money for it, your possibly guilty of unlawful enrichment.
- possible copyright infringement - I think I'm right in saying that most modcreators use freeware versions of 3D or painting programs. That's cool, but as soon as you charge
money for stuff you've created with their programs (like 3ds-max and Adobe Photoshop)
you're in trouble. That's only allowed when you've paid for their programs.
- the biggest question of all is who will be liable in the end. In some countries (most European and the US) one could make a point that Valve (as gateway and distributor)
have misled, or neglected to properly inform the participants of their legal rights and obligations. In some countries this can easily be circumvented by making the participant (digitally) acknowledging they've been informed of their rights with one single click, but for many countries that's not enough. Especially when the participant is a drop dead normal consumer. I can garantee that current and future European laws are quite hellbent on this.
There are other (minor) legal issues, but these I find the most pressing.
And let us not forget: most of the money would've gone to Valve/Bethesda - this was (as far as I'm concerned) just a corporate attempt to gain profit from modding and control over the entire modding scene. The modcreators were duped. Given a few pennies, whilst the Bethesda/Valve got the bucks, and now it's gone tits up and its the creators who get trolled.sunshinenbrick wrote: Can I make swords in your forge?
For 2.99 you can.
Perhaps I misread your post, but it seems you are agreeing with me rather than Axe. Axe doesn't care about the legal ramifications from what I gathered. -
In response to post #24798859. #24798999, #24799109, #24799114, #24799789, #24800024, #24800839, #24802019, #24802639, #24802919, #24803084, #24803214, #24803324, #24803634, #24803924, #24804049 are all replies on the same post.Blackasm, you are arguing against a strawman. I already replied to another of your posts showing that the boycott's views goes beyond not wanting to spend money.Nightasy wrote:Axeface wrote: Well said Nightasy, and thankyou for your tutorials. Sad to see your mods go, but I agree with everything you said.
Like someone else here said. Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance, and it's only a chance, because only quality would actually sell.
Self determination is important, and that has been refused.
In hindsight they should have actively curated the system, just like they do in other games. And allowed a donate button, instead of the 'pay-what-you-want-but-PAY' system.UberSmaug wrote: Sums up everything I've been saying for the past few days. Well said.greggorypeccary wrote: I don't see how any thinking person could fault you.vimebox wrote: Playing music for a family event is DIFFERENT from playing concert! go join as bethesda employee if u want a "REAL CONCERT!" and play here if u want to entertain a POOR PATHETIC FAMILY! who can only gives u a constructive critics!
did u know that somehow your mod makes RICH people buy vanilla skyrim? and bethesda not giving u anything not even a simple thanks of endorsement from that uprising selling! instead we gave u endorsement as a portfolio for your good credibility. in conclusion bethesda SHOULD make u as their employee/DLC project instead of taking money from your FAMILY!arxerisdam wrote: i think all modders who feel that way should actually go and download their stuff.
Someone else will take the place and life will go on.greggorypeccary wrote: I think they will. So what's your point. In the end you can download free mods from wealthy people and people that think it is their hobby and very new modders who just want experience. They will be free though so I guess you win. Some will even be good.CNR4806 wrote: Well, goodbye then?
What makes you think you're the first? What makes you think Skyrim is the first place I've seen modders with attitude like yours?
From what I see over the years (including games with a free/paid mod split like The Sims), every time someone rage-quits, the community on a whole remains unchanged, the status quo is maintained and nobody even remembers that modder after a few months at best.
One piece of advice: Don't get fooled by those who say "Awwww thank you for all these years of modding, I will miss you" when you announce your retirement. They'll happily move on before the end of the week and forget about you altogether.necroslord wrote: Just a remark to Axeface...
I don't think it's right to compare streamers or the nexus' earnings to "paid mods" as they are somewhat different. Most of those earnings come from third parties and not the consumers themsleves (ads and such).
A viewer can watch 10,000 videos in youtube and generate some revenue to the poster without too much trouble. But a player can't afford 100 mods at $1 a pop without affecting him to a greater or lesser degree.
Not taking sides on the matter, as it's a very complicated matter I still ahven't wrapped my head around even when it's already dead. But think that saying:
"Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance"
is not valid.Nightasy wrote: @CNR4806 - Oh, I'm not the first and I won't be the last. Artists have rights and no one should be allowed to take them away from us. The anti-paid mod community took away the right to sell mods from us. We need to fight for that freedom of choice. You have the right to choose whether or not do download mods, you have the right to choose whether or not to pay for mods. Artists should have the right to give away their work for free or charge a fee to purchase it.
Lastly, thanks for more of your hateful and ungrateful sentiments. They are unwelcome but they continue to prove my points. I have no response towards them, I am done listening to the hate.freedom613 wrote: If I have the right to boycott buying mods, you have the right to boycott giving them away. I do not agree with what you are doing, but I will respect it.arxerisdam wrote: @greggorypeccary
Some may even be good?
I think they will be better the problem now is the actual modders crying out laud how evil mod users are,do not realize they need to convince those users to actually buy their stuff, but instead of that they cry to heaven curse the mod users, is riddiculous you antagonize your future clients.
Now as anyone thinking in becoming a modder for hire?
i mean there are tons of ideas to make some money in this kind of stuff but all i see is people complaining and taking stuff too personally and looking at users as evil demos.
Really the momment you arent happy in a Open source community is time to pack up and move on, leave the spot open for new talented like minded people come and take the place, and i bet we will see a lot of good mods in the future and the community will endure no matter how many "amazing modders" go it has happen before with oblivion and the community is still here, growing and evolving, so yeah i think is time a lot of people just move on.
and really poor modders? anyone spending time making a mod for a game most have a least a more less decent computer and enough free time to spend it doing it plus an internet connection to upload the mod. if he has that then it is not a poor modder. and if by any chance it is poor and is losing he's/her time in making mods for a game for free then that person has a big problem of prioritiesgreggorypeccary wrote: Then you'll be happy.DreamingGirl wrote: There is nothing stopping you from making money off your mods. Set up your own website to host them, and cash off from ad revenues. That is the way youtubers earn their money anyway (they don't actually take any money from their viewers). Make your own videos to feature your mods on youtube, even screenshots work fine if you don't have the time/skill to make actual video shots.
There are plenty of ways to make money if you just think outside the box! (And you might even enjoy it too!) :)blackasm wrote: very well said the modding community has just declared that the work of mod authors is utterly worthless and should forever be. To me that is not their right, sure they don't need to buy it but to say they cant sell it when Bethesda says they can to me is absurd and I really don't even want to support these people with my hobby. all of my modding in the past was personal as I do try and make money off of my 3d models and so it is against my own interest to spend time making them into free mods, but recently I got a little involved in the community and made 2 retextures based on ideas I had heard in the forums. I am taking them down as I really don't even want to support a community that definitively says my time is worthless, after that the thumbs ups and the endorsements become the hollow words of someone taking advantage of you. I had learned that lesson already with my artwork and I guess this is just a further aspect of growing up. I don't have time for people who don't value me. Even though I never would have charged for my retextures, not like I could as they used assets with permission, I am still removing them.macintroll wrote: @necroslord
You still don't understand that
With this kind of system :
Player can get ANY (ALL) mods for FREE - FOREVER
Modder can get some $ given by the ads program reward. like on youtube exactly
The more popular is his mod, the more $ he can get.
You never paid to watch a video no ?
the service itself is FREE, so why shouldn't it be the same for a mod instead of a video ?
The analogy is perfect : the "content provider" (you tuber or modded etc..) get some $, the final user (watcher - player) has access FOR FREE to this service.
Where do you find downsides here ? -
In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579 are all replies on the same post.That 1,470$ is per year by the way. So in order to profit, you need to make $1,570 a year and that is if you are just a 3d modeler. I am not factoring in any other products you need to licence.retakrew7 wrote:UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."
-Bethesda Game Studios
Donations don't work.Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.
Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.
Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.
Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.
The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).
What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.
"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."
-Bethesda Game Studios
I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.
Donations don't work.freedom613 wrote: Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.
1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?
If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.
2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.
Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?
Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.
3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.
4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.
5. Income tax.
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As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law).beewyka819 wrote: Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.greggorypeccary wrote: beewyka819 said.
Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.
Ah ha!! now you're talkin'sunshinenbrick wrote: "...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."
They actually said this???
You do realise with that statement they are probably saying that modders will be doing more WORK than the original developers. Do people not see this?UberSmaug wrote: @freedom613. you have some valid points but I still feel you are underestimating the potential here. Yes there are cost involved, its call overhead. "1,570 to make a simple sword". But why would you stop after making just one sword. License is a one time fee to make many product that will pay out over time. Every new mod you produce has the potential for profit. Could you fall flat on your face in failure. Sure. There is risk in business. Still the decision to make that risk should be left to the individual mod author should it not.
I disagree that money will end all collaboration. Nothing would stop Authors from making deals to share profits in exchange for using each others assets. You would just have to ask.
I went on a tangent some where here on how modding is profitable (with all these conversations on four different forums and threads, I get lost with what I posted) for big projects, so the future of 3rd party DLC is going to be whatever gives the most return on investment when you factor in opportunity cost and the fixed total costs: simple items. Giant mods such as companions, quests, and the such are not profitable in the long run due to fees you have to pay to your team, and that it would take less time and earn you a bigger ROI just to make items. I go on more about this earlier in the thread, point being: Is that the future of 3rd Party DLC that we want?
To be honest, if mods are going to be behind a paywall, I would rather them go the route of Insurgency and Team Fortress 2 and the like and get financed by a big company and I buy the mod knowing it will have good quality and will be compatible with the rest of my products. -
In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194, #24803479 are all replies on the same post."Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.Axeface wrote:freedom613 wrote: Well done story but it forgets to factor in:
-Licencing (Most free modeling software do not let you sell work made on it, you need to fork out a grand for the full version).
-Lack of quality assurance (someone on imgur reviewed all the paid mods, needless to say, most of their quality was lacking and there were bugs galore)
-Risk of modder who stops supporting his/her mod incase an update breaks it.
-Incompatibility between mods
I could go on, but I believe I made my point. The issue goes far beyond "I want to make money off my work" and "I do not want to pay a dime for a mod". Best not to use a strawman when making a point.Axeface wrote: "Licensing" - irrelevant. It isn't your job, bethesdas or valves to police modders.
"Quality" - Agreed yet subjective, this is why they should have made it curated. But this was an experiment with that exact aim, to see what it's like if it isn't, imho. But we didnt even get to see what would happen, and were unfortunately inundated by troll mods in the 'review' section.
"Risk/Incompatibility" - As above, and irrelevant. It isn't up to you to tell people where to spend their money. There is risk in everything.
Yes the issue goes beyond, will have problems, and the implimentation had major issues. But to deny modders the chance... well.freedom613 wrote: -How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits.
-I would link the imgur article so I could show you the lack of quality of the mods (and I am talking in a "early access" lack of quality, not the textures could have been done a bit better lack of quality) but it credit's a skyrim mod piracy site. For the sake of the rules, I cannot link the photos on imgur, so I will summarise the findings:
-badly ported dota swords with grips so big that your hands clip through them + no proper shading at all.
-Most items had no inventory models, or only had a model for a single gender.
That is just a handful of the findings.
-This goes beyond a risk. If I paid for something, I want it to work. If it doesn't work, I want a refund. The fact that a modder could make a mod, have it break in an update, and I would be out of luck is absurd. How you not see this problem, and especially the licencing, as a problem boggles the mind.Axeface wrote: "-How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits."
It is irrelevant to you, the buyer, completely.
And you could get a refund, for 24 hours. Yes, it should NOT have been in steam wallet money, if that rumour is true. Yet another issue, but not a reason to refuse the system altogether.freedom613 wrote: So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think, especially from someone condemning the other camp as selfish. In any case, I posted some problems with paid mods, not some problems buying paid mods. So my point is relevant and stands. I wont even get into the problems with 24 hour refund (and yes, the rumour is true).Axeface wrote: "So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think"
What on earth are you talking about?
Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.
No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.
No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours."
Let me clarify my stance then: I am in favour of using the right tool for the job in every industry to benefit both producer and consumer. Paywalling is good for some industries, such as the purchasing of physical items, but it doesn't make much sense in mass-consumption digital industries, such as Youtube and modding.
The best scenario would be to mimic Youtube's model of buisness. Patreon, Ad Revenue, Sponserships. Each of those cost the consumer nothing but time and optional fiscal transactions.
Now you say I should let people self determine. Perhaps it is my LEO background, but I am not going to someone self-determine themselves into breaking a law. -
In response to post #24800994. #24801184, #24802944 are all replies on the same post.Blackasm, not everyone on the boycott wants to turn modders to, as you put it, street preformers. We just do not agree paywalling the best way to go about it. Youtubers are able to make money without me having to pay any money besides my internet connection, so paywalls are not the only option.Harbringe wrote:greggorypeccary wrote: I understand what you are saying but...
It's an excuse. Talk to modders, we know that a donation is rare indeed. Most people don't see why they should even want to. Just read what is said here below. A lot of people figure that they paid to be a member and that entitles them free mods so that is that. I didn't expect them and was not disappointed. I made my mod for free and knew it but ....not again. I don't mind being generous, I don't like being used. I'm not talking about just the community here. There is big money involved even without your donations.blackasm wrote: That is my exact sentiment gerggorypeccary, I didn't mind doing it for free, because frankly I didn't put much effort into modding what with actually trying to make a living off of my skills. It is a shame all of the talented authors who basically built the hobby we have come to enjoy are now relegated to nothing more than street performers now and forever, their time being labeled worthless by their so called fans. Literally money is value, its a lesson every artist has to go through, it is literally the difference between starving artist and professional. Some people might say that is greedy and talk about the illuminati, but even without a federal reserve or whatever people still gotta eat and trade their skills to do so. Artists sadly devalue themselves constantly, and so I try not to support anywhere that I feel takes advantage of those foolish and unknowing artists. Nexus I don't feel in any way took advantage of artists although it of course profits solely from the hard work of those artists free efforts, but I do feel that the community has by essentially saying they should not have the right to sell.
Of course it is up to Bethesda to decide not to have paid mods, but not the consumers. I made a promise to myself along time ago that I would not do work where it is not valued be it a lack of appreciation from someone or money from a client. This lack of appreciation in all of my years as an artist I have never felt so greatly as have in these last few days. literally the marketplace for digital creatives is awfully narrow with few jobs and thousands of artists, this could have set a new precedence. Remember those companies you love to demonize are pretty much the companies that made your mods possible, in a world full of EA's valve and Bethesda are champions. Those authors that were greedy by coming back and making new perfected updates to their mods for a price built the hobby you are so entitled to a lot of them foolishly doing it for some fool dream of exposure. I am thankful now more than ever that I did not waste any more time on this hobby as I got better s#*! to do.
Why hammer in a screw, if you have a screw driver? Use the right tool for each situation.
Drawing a line under recent events and moving on
in Site Updates
Posted
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
You took a very complex point of view, and boiled it down to "people don't want to pay for stuff".