Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[arxerisdam]

In response to post #24798859. #24798999, #24799109, #24799114, #24799789, #24800024, #24800839, #24802019, #24802639, #24802919, #24803084, #24803324 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

Axeface wrote: Well said Nightasy, and thankyou for your tutorials. Sad to see your mods go, but I agree with everything you said.
Like someone else here said. Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance, and it's only a chance, because only quality would actually sell.
Self determination is important, and that has been refused.

In hindsight they should have actively curated the system, just like they do in other games. And allowed a donate button, instead of the 'pay-what-you-want-but-PAY' system.

UberSmaug wrote: Sums up everything I've been saying for the past few days. Well said.

greggorypeccary wrote: I don't see how any thinking person could fault you.

vimebox wrote: Playing music for a family event is DIFFERENT from playing concert! go join as bethesda employee if u want a "REAL CONCERT!" and play here if u want to entertain a POOR PATHETIC FAMILY! who can only gives u a constructive critics!

did u know that somehow your mod makes RICH people buy vanilla skyrim? and bethesda not giving u anything not even a simple thanks of endorsement from that uprising selling! instead we gave u endorsement as a portfolio for your good credibility. in conclusion bethesda SHOULD make u as their employee/DLC project instead of taking money from your FAMILY!

arxerisdam wrote: i think all modders who feel that way should actually go and download their stuff.

Someone else will take the place and life will go on.

greggorypeccary wrote: I think they will. So what's your point. In the end you can download free mods from wealthy people and people that think it is their hobby and very new modders who just want experience. They will be free though so I guess you win. Some will even be good.

CNR4806 wrote: Well, goodbye then?

What makes you think you're the first? What makes you think Skyrim is the first place I've seen modders with attitude like yours?

From what I see over the years (including games with a free/paid mod split like The Sims), every time someone rage-quits, the community on a whole remains unchanged, the status quo is maintained and nobody even remembers that modder after a few months at best.

One piece of advice: Don't get fooled by those who say "Awwww thank you for all these years of modding, I will miss you" when you announce your retirement. They'll happily move on before the end of the week and forget about you altogether.

necroslord wrote: Just a remark to Axeface...

I don't think it's right to compare streamers or the nexus' earnings to "paid mods" as they are somewhat different. Most of those earnings come from third parties and not the consumers themsleves (ads and such).

A viewer can watch 10,000 videos in youtube and generate some revenue to the poster without too much trouble. But a player can't afford 100 mods at $1 a pop without affecting him to a greater or lesser degree.

Not taking sides on the matter, as it's a very complicated matter I still ahven't wrapped my head around even when it's already dead. But think that saying:

"Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance"

is not valid.

Nightasy wrote: @CNR4806 - Oh, I'm not the first and I won't be the last. Artists have rights and no one should be allowed to take them away from us. The anti-paid mod community took away the right to sell mods from us. We need to fight for that freedom of choice. You have the right to choose whether or not do download mods, you have the right to choose whether or not to pay for mods. Artists should have the right to give away their work for free or charge a fee to purchase it.

Lastly, thanks for more of your hateful and ungrateful sentiments. They are unwelcome but they continue to prove my points. I have no response towards them, I am done listening to the hate.

freedom613 wrote: If I have the right to boycott buying mods, you have the right to boycott giving them away. I do not agree with what you are doing, but I will respect it.

greggorypeccary wrote: Then you'll be happy.

@greggorypeccary

Some may even be good?

I think they will be better the problem now is the actual modders crying out laud how evil mod users are,do not realize they need to convince those users to actually buy their stuff, but instead of that they cry to heaven curse the mod users, is riddiculous you antagonize your future clients.

Now as anyone thinking in becoming a modder for hire?

i mean there are tons of ideas to make some money in this kind of stuff but all i see is people complaining and taking stuff too personally and looking at users as evil demos.

Really the momment you arent happy in a Open source community is time to pack up and move on, leave the spot open for new talented like minded people come and take the place, and i bet we will see a lot of good mods in the future and the community will endure no matter how many "amazing modders" go it has happen before with oblivion and the community is still here, growing and evolving, so yeah i think is time a lot of people just move on.

and really poor modders? anyone spending time making a mod for a game most have a least a more less decent computer and enough free time to spend it doing it plus an internet connection to upload the mod. if he has that then it is not a poor modder. and if by any chance it is poor and is losing he's/her time in making mods for a game for free then that person has a big problem of priorities

Edited April 29, 2015 by arxerisdam

[blackasm]

In response to post #24800594. #24801939, #24802404 are all replies on the same post.

OiramX5 wrote:

beewyka819 wrote: The modders are fully aware that many people still support them. That's not why some are removing their mods, they're doing it to prove a point. And what makes you any different from the haters? Oh, so you didn't like Nightasy's decision so you go and s#*! of him and other modders, that's exactly what the haters do. A true supporter would support the modder no matter what his decision on the publicity of his mods are, as long as the reasons don't include being an ***hole or anything along those lines. I for example, emailed Chesko and mentioned how I will support him through and through, no matter what his choice is, to stop modding, to continue, etc. THAT is a true fan, NOT someone that turns the other way because they got butthurt because everything didn't go their way.

OiramX5 wrote: beewyka81

There a difference between support something and mindless follow without question, I support the modders but I not approve the actions of some, like this kind of thing.

Well, the only point they prove to me doing this is they only care about haters and give a **** to who support them or have supported all this time. I dont like, dont approve, dont think this is fair with the supporters, but in any moment I have **** on him.

And Chesko unlike Nightasy, Foxster and Nodoric (Just to name a few) dont have gone angry and remove all his content because the haters, and Chesko suffered much more than him but dont turn blind eye to the supporters, that's the point.

OiramX5 you support free s#*!, money is value plain and simple. You cannot talk about a 25% cut being awful for the modder when you support 0%

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24798859. #24798999, #24799109, #24799114, #24799789, #24800024, #24800839, #24802019, #24802639, #24802919, #24803084, #24803214 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

Axeface wrote: Well said Nightasy, and thankyou for your tutorials. Sad to see your mods go, but I agree with everything you said.
Like someone else here said. Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance, and it's only a chance, because only quality would actually sell.
Self determination is important, and that has been refused.

In hindsight they should have actively curated the system, just like they do in other games. And allowed a donate button, instead of the 'pay-what-you-want-but-PAY' system.

UberSmaug wrote: Sums up everything I've been saying for the past few days. Well said.

greggorypeccary wrote: I don't see how any thinking person could fault you.

vimebox wrote: Playing music for a family event is DIFFERENT from playing concert! go join as bethesda employee if u want a "REAL CONCERT!" and play here if u want to entertain a POOR PATHETIC FAMILY! who can only gives u a constructive critics!

did u know that somehow your mod makes RICH people buy vanilla skyrim? and bethesda not giving u anything not even a simple thanks of endorsement from that uprising selling! instead we gave u endorsement as a portfolio for your good credibility. in conclusion bethesda SHOULD make u as their employee/DLC project instead of taking money from your FAMILY!

arxerisdam wrote: i think all modders who feel that way should actually go and download their stuff.

Someone else will take the place and life will go on.

greggorypeccary wrote: I think they will. So what's your point. In the end you can download free mods from wealthy people and people that think it is their hobby and very new modders who just want experience. They will be free though so I guess you win. Some will even be good.

CNR4806 wrote: Well, goodbye then?

What makes you think you're the first? What makes you think Skyrim is the first place I've seen modders with attitude like yours?

From what I see over the years (including games with a free/paid mod split like The Sims), every time someone rage-quits, the community on a whole remains unchanged, the status quo is maintained and nobody even remembers that modder after a few months at best.

One piece of advice: Don't get fooled by those who say "Awwww thank you for all these years of modding, I will miss you" when you announce your retirement. They'll happily move on before the end of the week and forget about you altogether.

necroslord wrote: Just a remark to Axeface...

I don't think it's right to compare streamers or the nexus' earnings to "paid mods" as they are somewhat different. Most of those earnings come from third parties and not the consumers themsleves (ads and such).

A viewer can watch 10,000 videos in youtube and generate some revenue to the poster without too much trouble. But a player can't afford 100 mods at $1 a pop without affecting him to a greater or lesser degree.

Not taking sides on the matter, as it's a very complicated matter I still ahven't wrapped my head around even when it's already dead. But think that saying:

"Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance"

is not valid.

Nightasy wrote: @CNR4806 - Oh, I'm not the first and I won't be the last. Artists have rights and no one should be allowed to take them away from us. The anti-paid mod community took away the right to sell mods from us. We need to fight for that freedom of choice. You have the right to choose whether or not do download mods, you have the right to choose whether or not to pay for mods. Artists should have the right to give away their work for free or charge a fee to purchase it.

Lastly, thanks for more of your hateful and ungrateful sentiments. They are unwelcome but they continue to prove my points. I have no response towards them, I am done listening to the hate.

freedom613 wrote: If I have the right to boycott buying mods, you have the right to boycott giving them away. I do not agree with what you are doing, but I will respect it.

arxerisdam wrote: @greggorypeccary

Some may even be good?

I think they will be better the problem now is the actual modders crying out laud how evil mod users are,do not realize they need to convince those users to actually buy their stuff, but instead of that they cry to heaven curse the mod users, is riddiculous you antagonize your future clients.

Now as anyone thinking in becoming a modder for hire?

i mean there are tons of ideas to make some money in this kind of stuff but all i see is people complaining and taking stuff too personally and looking at users as evil demos.

Really the momment you arent happy in a Open source community is time to pack up and move on, leave the spot open for new talented like minded people come and take the place, and i bet we will see a lot of good mods in the future and the community will endure no matter how many "amazing modders" go it has happen before with oblivion and the community is still here, growing and evolving, so yeah i think is time a lot of people just move on.

and really poor modders? anyone spending time making a mod for a game most have a least a more less decent computer and enough free time to spend it doing it plus an internet connection to upload the mod. if he has thbat thats not a poor modder. and if by any chance it is poor and is losing he's/her time in making mods for a game for free then that person has a big problem of priorities

Then you'll be happy.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24791749. #24793384, #24802574, #24802674, #24802989, #24803149 are all replies on the same post.

RemusAluthr wrote:

GoldenDragonRider wrote: To me, the fact that the community is so divided by this, sort of showed what a delicate system this truly is. It's as if the community was built as 2D graphite sheets rather than the 3D diamond lattice we thought. No one could have expected a turn out as messy as this...

CNR4806 wrote: Well, this paid-mod experiment is like the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil to some modders.

It gets pretty ridiculous when you realize that many who were willingly working for the community until that point had willingly submitted themselves to the OMGMONEYMONEYMONEY-frenzy and went AGAINST the community.

And then you would horrifyingly realize that these seemingly benevolent people simply didn't know about the possibility of monetization until Beth and Valve opened the floodgate. Worse yet, some of their creations have already grown to the point that they're so essential, these same people can effectively hold the entire community at ransom if they want to.


tl;dr - I agree completely, the damage is already done, those who have literally JUMPED at the chance of monetization aren't going to just come back. While I do foresee the community recovering from this, it may take a little while.

sunshinenbrick wrote: A paltry sum it is not if you multiply the number of mods you have in your load order by 1.99 or more. Plus the game, plus any DLC... Oh and what if ENB and SKSE jump in on the action too?

beewyka819 wrote: @CNR4806
I think that the mod makers deserve to make money off of mods if they want to, the better way to do this would be ad revenue as that shows success in many fields. Even still I think the community was being more greedy than the mod developers in this case. In fact, I'll say it, I don't think most of the mod makers were being greedy whatsoever, asking for a simple minimum of $1 isn't a lot at all for someone that can afford a computer to run a game like Skyrim with mods and decent graphics and FPS above 30. Like, for example, if Falskaar suddenly cost money, ok, they deserve at least a dollar for it, after all, it did take a year out of people lives to make that (not exaggerating). And I don't mean donations, because most statistics show around 1 donation for every 100,000 downloads or something that gives you the same idea, donations are rare. Ad revenue would be something everyone can get behind, that and Patreon.

freedom613 wrote: SKSE is legal limbo, so I doubt they are interested in changing their status quo by going paid.
Boris should be in the same boat as well I believe.

Falskaar cannot be compared to a simple armor mod, the price would be higher... The cost to get into gaming and modding will become extremely high.

Not to mention many mods are co-dependent on 2 - 3 or more other mods, all of which will probably need to be purchased.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24800594. #24801939, #24802404, #24803319 are all replies on the same post.

OiramX5 wrote:

beewyka819 wrote: The modders are fully aware that many people still support them. That's not why some are removing their mods, they're doing it to prove a point. And what makes you any different from the haters? Oh, so you didn't like Nightasy's decision so you go and s#*! of him and other modders, that's exactly what the haters do. A true supporter would support the modder no matter what his decision on the publicity of his mods are, as long as the reasons don't include being an ***hole or anything along those lines. I for example, emailed Chesko and mentioned how I will support him through and through, no matter what his choice is, to stop modding, to continue, etc. THAT is a true fan, NOT someone that turns the other way because they got butthurt because everything didn't go their way.

OiramX5 wrote: beewyka81

There a difference between support something and mindless follow without question, I support the modders but I not approve the actions of some, like this kind of thing.

Well, the only point they prove to me doing this is they only care about haters and give a **** to who support them or have supported all this time. I dont like, dont approve, dont think this is fair with the supporters, but in any moment I have **** on him.

And Chesko unlike Nightasy, Foxster and Nodoric (Just to name a few) dont have gone angry and remove all his content because the haters, and Chesko suffered much more than him but dont turn blind eye to the supporters, that's the point.

blackasm wrote: OiramX5 you support free s#*!, money is value plain and simple. You cannot talk about a 25% cut being awful for the modder when you support 0%

Money is not the only thing of value in the world. Sorry but it isn't.

[Axeface]

In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

freedom613 wrote: Well done story but it forgets to factor in:
-Licencing (Most free modeling software do not let you sell work made on it, you need to fork out a grand for the full version).
-Lack of quality assurance (someone on imgur reviewed all the paid mods, needless to say, most of their quality was lacking and there were bugs galore)
-Risk of modder who stops supporting his/her mod incase an update breaks it.
-Incompatibility between mods

I could go on, but I believe I made my point. The issue goes far beyond "I want to make money off my work" and "I do not want to pay a dime for a mod". Best not to use a strawman when making a point.

Axeface wrote: "Licensing" - irrelevant. It isn't your job, bethesdas or valves to police modders.
"Quality" - Agreed yet subjective, this is why they should have made it curated. But this was an experiment with that exact aim, to see what it's like if it isn't, imho. But we didnt even get to see what would happen, and were unfortunately inundated by troll mods in the 'review' section.
"Risk/Incompatibility" - As above, and irrelevant. It isn't up to you to tell people where to spend their money. There is risk in everything.

Yes the issue goes beyond, will have problems, and the implimentation had major issues. But to deny modders the chance... well.

freedom613 wrote: -How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits.

-I would link the imgur article so I could show you the lack of quality of the mods (and I am talking in a "early access" lack of quality, not the textures could have been done a bit better lack of quality) but it credit's a skyrim mod piracy site. For the sake of the rules, I cannot link the photos on imgur, so I will summarise the findings:
-badly ported dota swords with grips so big that your hands clip through them + no proper shading at all.
-Most items had no inventory models, or only had a model for a single gender.
That is just a handful of the findings.

-This goes beyond a risk. If I paid for something, I want it to work. If it doesn't work, I want a refund. The fact that a modder could make a mod, have it break in an update, and I would be out of luck is absurd. How you not see this problem, and especially the licencing, as a problem boggles the mind.

Axeface wrote: "-How is licencing irrelevant? It is a violation of the TOS the modder agreed too. Ignoring that is opening a door to law suits."
It is irrelevant to you, the buyer, completely.

And you could get a refund, for 24 hours. Yes, it should NOT have been in steam wallet money, if that rumour is true. Yet another issue, but not a reason to refuse the system altogether.

freedom613 wrote: So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think, especially from someone condemning the other camp as selfish. In any case, I posted some problems with paid mods, not some problems buying paid mods. So my point is relevant and stands. I wont even get into the problems with 24 hour refund (and yes, the rumour is true).

"So because it doesn't directly affect me, I cannot point the problem out? Tad selfish don't you think"
What on earth are you talking about?

Actually, it kind of makes sense. Clarifies your stance.
You think you should be able to tell people not to brake a TOS or the law, and you also want to tell them that they cant self-determine by selling mods.

No sir, I am not selfish for wanting people to have the option to do whatever the hell they want, the consequences are in their hands, not yours.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803499 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.
Edited April 29, 2015 by Vesuvius1745

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

@sunshinenbrick : sorry miss but you should learn how adsense/adwords works. and nor google, nor youtube own your videos they are plateform providers period.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'd like to know where you are getting this financial info about the Nexus. It was my understanding they consistently run at a loss. Running a popular website takes a lot of time, and one that uses a ton of bandwidth can be very expensive.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network.

One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

macintroll wrote: @Marstonn
Anybody is able to monetize his video on Google.
Being in a "network" (what does it really mean in your mind ?) is not necessary , but for sure better for the number of views.

and concerning what can be "game press" well of course they are allowed, they are free advertiser for the games companies ^^ new games are send to them for reviews , even presents etc..

What is not authorized is to diffuse a video with Copyright content (the video itself, music etc...)

macintroll wrote: quote "You cannot compare the youtube setup to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts."

Well so explain me why Nexus is allowed to make $500.000+ / year in ads earnings...
then explain me why i can't make some $ the same way, thanks.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Some days ago Dark0ne said he was spending 500.000$ a year only for servers renting and additional costs. So i take this as a base.. but it could be far more in fact ^^
As the only nexus earnings are Ads.. (and some memberships) .. it's easy to understand how much is gain from ads earnings.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't understand how you are extrapolating profit from what Dark0ne is saying he spends to keep the site running. It sounds to me like this is a huge money sink for him.

greggorypeccary wrote: It isn't

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Ok if you think so, but what lead you to think this ? have you found some numbers ?
A company (black tree gaming) own the nexus, and make money like any company, has operating costs like any other , at least the goal is to maintain an equilibrium. No one can work loosing money for long you know, and Nexus is growing "open to all games", it doesn't sound like a loosing company.
So if you have at least $500.000 to spend each year to make your business active, you need to earn at minima as much money somewhere.
And apart from nexus network what are the incomes ? none i'm aware of.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it.

In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I have no evidence of anything. I was going on Dark0ne's word that he runs this site at a loss. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I would be surprised if a site like this was making any significant amount of profit. He spends a lot of money on upkeep, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is making at least that from donations/ads. I have friends who made a ton of money off of Bitcoins, and are now engaging in labors of love that are also money sinks.

Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

macintroll wrote: quote : " Do you have some information the rest of us don't?"
All key financial info on companies are publicly available (thus it's last year for most yet) and detailled info can be bought if you want.
Google the company name you'll find more info. (not very difficult)

I'm not here to accuse nexus of anything, just to point the fact that they are allowed to make money from ads, is it enough, is it too much ?, it's not the point of my discussion, honestly I don't care, the "service" is good here, i really appreciate what Dark0ne has made and how it helps the "community".

But if they can do it, rightfully gaining money providing access to modders content ...why not also the modders who provide each part of the content of this site ?.
I see it as a win-win solution : free mods for end users and modders rewarded with some $

Again in this formula, it's not the mod which is giving money to the modder, it's the audience it generate like elsewhere, exactly what does the nexus to pay their bills.

greggorypeccary wrote: The world is full of hugely profitable companies whose whose image is " We're your friend. We're here to help you" . And don't let the words Non Profit fool you either. My advise is that when they offer you the Kool-Aide tomorrow.....Don't drink it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought.

My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it.

I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

DreamingGirl wrote: If you don't like Nexus 'making money' off your mods, you are free to set up your own site to host them on, get advertizement and see how much you actually earn from it :)

greggorypeccary wrote: I know. I never said they can't make money. You are mis- paraphrazing

No offence to any mod creator but money is not the only thing people can contribute. Edited April 30, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24800994. #24801184, #24802944 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: I understand what you are saying but...
It's an excuse. Talk to modders, we know that a donation is rare indeed. Most people don't see why they should even want to. Just read what is said here below. A lot of people figure that they paid to be a member and that entitles them free mods so that is that. I didn't expect them and was not disappointed. I made my mod for free and knew it but ....not again. I don't mind being generous, I don't like being used. I'm not talking about just the community here. There is big money involved even without your donations.

blackasm wrote: That is my exact sentiment gerggorypeccary, I didn't mind doing it for free, because frankly I didn't put much effort into modding what with actually trying to make a living off of my skills. It is a shame all of the talented authors who basically built the hobby we have come to enjoy are now relegated to nothing more than street performers now and forever, their time being labeled worthless by their so called fans. Literally money is value, its a lesson every artist has to go through, it is literally the difference between starving artist and professional. Some people might say that is greedy and talk about the illuminati, but even without a federal reserve or whatever people still gotta eat and trade their skills to do so. Artists sadly devalue themselves constantly, and so I try not to support anywhere that I feel takes advantage of those foolish and unknowing artists. Nexus I don't feel in any way took advantage of artists although it of course profits solely from the hard work of those artists free efforts, but I do feel that the community has by essentially saying they should not have the right to sell.

Of course it is up to Bethesda to decide not to have paid mods, but not the consumers. I made a promise to myself along time ago that I would not do work where it is not valued be it a lack of appreciation from someone or money from a client. This lack of appreciation in all of my years as an artist I have never felt so greatly as have in these last few days. literally the marketplace for digital creatives is awfully narrow with few jobs and thousands of artists, this could have set a new precedence. Remember those companies you love to demonize are pretty much the companies that made your mods possible, in a world full of EA's valve and Bethesda are champions. Those authors that were greedy by coming back and making new perfected updates to their mods for a price built the hobby you are so entitled to a lot of them foolishly doing it for some fool dream of exposure. I am thankful now more than ever that I did not waste any more time on this hobby as I got better s#*! to do.

Blackasm, not everyone on the boycott wants to turn modders to, as you put it, street preformers. We just do not agree paywalling the best way to go about it. Youtubers are able to make money without me having to pay any money besides my internet connection, so paywalls are not the only option.

Why hammer in a screw, if you have a screw driver? Use the right tool for each situation. Edited April 29, 2015 by freedom613

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.