Peregrine going anile on Melu2

[Melu2]

Could we cool off a bit please.  Both of you hold entrenched views and nothing either of you can say or do will change the other's mind.  Calling each other stupid or idiots means nothing as you will certainly seem that way to each other!

 

Melu, segregation between church and state is enshrined in the US constitition.  Peregrine, the church has played a significant role in the US since its founding.  The two statements are not in any sense conflicting.

 

Some facts:- currently some 80% of Americans put 'christianity' as their religion.  This does not mean they are practising.  It also makes no distinction between the multiplicity of sects (jehovah's Witness, LDS, orthodox etc.).  The figure is and has been declining slowly for many years.

 

Right wing fundamentalists are about 15 million in number, less than 5% of the total population.

 

Born-again or 'true' Christians (to themselves) are less than 1%.

 

The fastest growing religion in the US is Islam.

 

Make of the figures what you like.

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Okay, I will leave it at that! Thank u Malchik!

[Dark0ne]

When will people learn that talking about religion on these forums brings out the Hellbird's wrath? I'm helpless to cut-in when you lay down such a poor argument, Melu.

 

While what you say may be true to you, you provided no evidence and weren't commited to defending your argument YOURSELF...giving people links to third-party conjecture is not a solid defense.

 

This is a debates forum..not a statements forum. If you're unwilling to defend your points then please either concede or don't post in these forums.

 

You know how possessed pissed Peregrine gets when you mention religion, so why open yourself up to his attacks?

[Melu2]

When will people learn that talking about religion on these forums brings out the Hellbird's wrath? I'm helpless to cut-in when you lay down such a poor argument, Melu.

 

While what you say may be true to you, you provided no evidence and weren't commited to defending your argument YOURSELF...giving people links to third-party conjecture is not a solid defense.

 

This is a debates forum..not a statements forum. If you're unwilling to defend your points then please either concede or don't post in these forums.

 

You know how possessed pissed Peregrine gets when you mention religion, so why open yourself up to his attacks?

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Okay...

Quote John Adams signer of the Decleration of Indipendence and Second President of the United states of America

is is religion and morality alone which can establish the principals upon which freedom can securely stand. the only foundation a a free constitution is a pure virtue.

further the man said:

We have no goverment armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.....Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholy inadequat to the goverment of any other.

going on in quoting John adams

the moment the idea is admited into society, that property is not as sacred as the lwas of God, and that there is no force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy tyranny commence. If Thou shalt not covet and Thou shalt not steal were not commandments of heaven, the must be made made inviolable precepts in every society, befor it can be civiliced or made free.

Quoting John quincy adams the sixth President:

there are three points of doctrine the belife of which forms the foudation of all morality. the first is the exsistence of God; the second is the immorality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of reward and punishments. suppose for a man to disbelive either of these three articels of faith and that man will have no concience, he will have no other law that that of the tiger or the shark. the laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise virtoouse or happy.

Quoting charles Carroll of Carollton signer of the decleration of Indipendence

without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefor who are decrying the christian religion, whose moralityis so sublime and pure and which denounces against the wicked eternal missery and which insured good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best securitz for the duration of free goverments.

i do have eight pages of this sort of statemnts. Or like I said befor look it up at www.wallbuilders.com

[Peregrine]

Melu, segregation between church and state is enshrined in the US constitition. Peregrine, the church has played a significant role in the US since its founding. The two statements are not in any sense conflicting.

 

It is a conflict. Apparently you don't really understand this, since you don't have to live here, but the "we're a christian nation" argument is far from rare. And it is inevitably followed by attacks on separation of church and state. Every time, they distort history to "prove" the founders intended us to be a christian nation, so annoying things like laws and constitutions don't get in the way.

 

 

Quotes cut for length

 

Ok, so you've found some quotes. Good job on missing the entire point of my arguments. I'll repost it for you, so maybe next time you can actually reply to it:

 

Our "christian nation" considered separation of church and state so important they put it in the constitution as unarguable law. If we are a christian nation, why did they do this?

 

Many of those founders were not christian, and some made clear statements against it. Why would they found a christian nation?

 

The second president and one of the founders of our 'christian nation" decided that our religious nature was so important he would write it in a treaty to inform the world. Oh wait, that treaty said in terms clear enough for my dog to understand that we are NOT a christian nation.

[Melu2]

would any argument of mine quiet u? No! Lock this thread if u please!

:sick:

[Peregrine]

Of course you could find an argument that would convince me. The problem is, you haven't even bothered trying.

 

You want to prove your point is valid? Answer those arguments in my previous post and do something to prove it. Find the word "Jesus" in the fundamental documents our "christian" nation is based on.

[Malchik]

I do understand the fact that many fundamentalists believe that there should be no segregation between the church and the state in the USA and that for all sensible Americans that is not merely annoying but downright infuriating! I have visited often enough and have relatives there so I don't always escape the arguments either.

 

(Peregrine, I have a wonderful definition of a 'christian' that I would never post here but I'm afraid the forum won't let me PM you.)

 

The laws adhered to by the USA could be said loosely to be based on the ethics defined in the bible (old testament and therefore in fact Jewish rather than christian) and although it would be true to say that most world faiths have very similar ethics, often pre-dating the christian one, it is easy to see why people say 'we are a christian society'.

 

The real conflict is not in the statement but in it's interpretation to mean AND THEREFORE WE WORSHIP THE CHRISTIAN GOD which is fallacious. Sadly, and I agree with you here, it is often used.

 

You cannot however deny that the church has played a significant role in the shaping of the USA. If it hadn't you wouldn't have the conflict we are referring to above. Whether it's influence is benign or malign I have not said. Any right-thinking person is entitled to draw their own conclusions.

 

What worries me is the systematised attempts at brainwashing carried out in the US (and other countires) hiding under the banner of Patriotism. Just as insidious! Where this is linked to christianity too it becomes downright evil! (And is very unchristian.)

 

I'm off for the weekend now so I won't have access to see any response until Monday. But don't think I am avoiding debate.

[Abramul]

The U.S. may not be founded on Christianity, but the Founders did, I think, believe in the ideals of the Abrahamic religions. The idea of seperation of Church and State came about since many of the colonists came over because of religious disagreements. With the increasing diversity of religions, this remains important. However, it doesn't mean that Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, and such concepts cannot even be RECOGNIZED by the government.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God

That I must agree with. I don't like organized religion. Religions thrive when people are unhappy...fair enough. But combined with the observation that the things they tell us are wrong are almost all things people enjoy...could that mean something?

[Kaningutten]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

 

Under God...

 

The next quote is the last bit of Bush's first speech after 9.11

 

America and our friends and allies join with all those who want peace and security in the world, and we stand together to win the war against terrorism. Tonight, I ask for your prayers for all those who grieve, for the children whose worlds have been shattered, for all whose sense of safety and security has been threatened. And I pray they will be comforted by a power greater than any of us, spoken through the ages in Psalm 23: "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me."

 

This is a day when all Americans from every walk of life unite in our resolve for justice and peace. America has stood down enemies before, and we will do so this time. None of us will ever forget this day. Yet, we go forward to defend freedom and all that is good and just in our world.

 

Thank you. Good night, and God bless America.

 

HERE is the whole speech!

 

For a non-christian nation god sure seems to be a recurring topic... My point is that no matter what the founding fathers ever meant for the nation to be, whatever is in the constitution, god certainly plays an important part of todays United States of America. Hehe, even Bush quotes the bible... But Peregrine has many good points (however blunt he may be) and I am really no expert on American politics, but many Norwegians have a similar relationship with god, though we are (sadly ;)) a nation where church and state IS united.

[Melu2]

Of course you could find an argument that would convince me. The problem is, you haven't even bothered trying.

 

You want to prove your point is valid? Answer those arguments in my previous post and do something to prove it. Find the word "Jesus" in the fundamental documents our "christian" nation is based on.

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Thomas Jefferson states:

the doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind!

and....

I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers! End Quote!

and now I do have to ask u a favour. there is a seven page thread on the treaty of TripolyWallbuilders.com on this site, now would u please be so good and read up on it there. I belive just quoting about it would not bring the whole point across and it has to be read in whole!

but here a part of my source"those who attribute the Treaty of Tripoly quote Geaorge washington( the goverment of the united states of america is in no sense foundet on the Christian Religion....) make two misstakes. the first is that no statement in it can be atributed to washington(The Treaty did not arive in america untill month after he left office);Washington never swa the treaty; it was not his work;no statement in it can be ascribed to him. the second misstake is to divorce a single clause of the Treaty from the remainder which provides it's context.

Furthermore, it was Adams who declared:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved indipendence were...the general principals of christianity. ...I will avow that I then belived, and now believe, that those general pricipals of chistianity are as eternal and immutable as the exsistanceand atributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature! End quote.

adams own words confirm taht he rejected any notion that america was less than a christian nation!

so..go ahead...!