Lachdonin Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 As for this... This is just flat out wrong. We're told by several different sources that the Empire is preparing for a war on THEIR terms, not that they're trying to avoid it. Even the Thalmor note the Empires militarization. Also remember that we're talking a fuedal-era society. They don't have the rapid re-population and infrastructure of industrial era powers. 23 years isn't that long to recover from a war that left hundreds of thousands dead. General Tullius himself attends a Thalmor party, as a demonstration that the Dominion can tell the Empire what to do. He fears not attending a party will jeopardize the peace. This isn't a Empire preparing for war, this is a scalded dog. Additionally, 26 years is enough time for a new generation to be born and grow into adulthood. The humans will have an easier time repopulating compared to the elves too. First, Tullius' behavior is not that of a 'scalded dog' (do you mean scolded? i've never head this particular idiom before) it's the behavior of a Military General doing what he's been told. Second, the Empires social and political position is far more complicated than "Oooh, Dominion bad, must smash!" vs "Yes mastah!". The Empire requires a degree of political support from the provinces to fund and supply a war effort, and after the Concordant Mede lost a lot of that support. There's a reason why he just stands there and lets you kill him with the Dark Brotherhood, and i suspect it has something to do with his sins dying with him. I wrote a far more in-depth and thoughtful piece on /r/teslore some time back, frankly i don't really want to re-write it.... And finally, 23 years is enough time to rebuild a generation, yes, but not a nation. It was more than a century for Carthage to regain a fraction of it's power after it's last razing by the Romans. The Dominion had a year to run amok, and totally obliterated the infrastructure in Cyrodiil. It slaughtered thousands, and almost certainly burned and poisoned fields, destroyed forests and committed all sorts of atrocities. This has been covered before, and i feel like we're dragging the conversation back through finally-settled mud, but the likelyhood of the Empire being back to its pre-war power is virtually nil. Does that mean they're stronger than the Dominion? I don't know, but they certainly don't feel like things are weighted ENOUGH in their favor. Of course, the Alinor navy is still untouched, and even at its height, with a god-king leading them, the Empire needed a magical time-breaking golem to get past THAT force... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 No I mean scalded. The term "scalded dog" originated when people used to cook, can, and preserve food outside. A dog could come into contact with spilled hot water or foodstuff and run from the pain. Dogs will run away long after the pain causing entity is gone. A loose definition, but there it is. The Empire could make a stand against the Dominion, but that would mean opening up Cyrodiil to another invasion. And the Imperials are fiercely reluctant to risk that. So they've capitulated in the form of the White Gold Concordant, and even allowing the Thalmor to handle the enforcement of the ban on Talos worship. Anything to avoid another invasion. And that's what this really comes down to. The Empire doesn't have the stomach for another war with the Dominion. Ulfric knows he can hold Skyrim once it is unified. Can he invade the summerset isles all on his lonesome? No, but I don't think he would make the attempt without allies. And he stands a better chance at forging an alliance with Hammerfell than the Empire does. High Rock has typically only been concerned with High Rock, so what they'll do is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) And that's what this really comes down to. The Empire doesn't have the stomach for another war with the Dominion. Ulfric knows he can hold Skyrim once it is unified. Can he invade the summerset isles all on his lonesome? No, but I don't think he would make the attempt without allies. And he stands a better chance at forging an alliance with Hammerfell than the Empire does. High Rock has typically only been concerned with High Rock, so what they'll do is anyone's guess. First... Hammerfell and Skyrim have a long-running hatred that goes back over a thousand years. It's been burned into their very cultures, and even as members of the Empire they've gone to war a few times. The likelihood of an alliance between them less than Hammerfell forgiving the Empire. Second, you're applying a double stanard to your evaluation. Ulfric KNOWS he can hold Skyrim, whereas Tullius only CLAIMS that the Empire is preparing for war. Skyrim is the weakest it's been since the Collapse of the First Empire, one of its largest cities is virtually destroyed, corruption is everywhere, not to mention the Dragon problem, and most of its fortifications are in shambles. But Ulfric can hold, no question. Meanwhile, Tullius tells you about the Legion formations on the Dominion Border and how the impending war is more important to his superiors than the Stormcloak Rebellion (which is why he has to recruit locally), and the College of Whispers is clearly gathering military-grade magic artifacts and the Penitus Oculatus is on high alert. But no, the Empire is deliberately avoiding anything that could spark a war with the Dominion. If you claim uncertainty of one, you have to apply the same skepticism of the other. But this is getting Waaaay off track, and is jsut devolving into another "Imperial-vs-Stormcloak" thing, and we've had all that out before. There aren't going to be any new arguments here, and i'm getting very tired of repeating the same thing over and over. Ulfric is not a racist. At least not anymore than anyone else (though there are some shining examples of racism in Skyrim). He's also not an idealist or a altruist. What he does isn't for Skyrim, it's for himself. His power, his legacy, HIS Skyrim (as in what he thinks Skyrim should be). It's with a touch of irony, though, that the Thalmor focus on Talos underlies their lack of racism. To them, Lorkhan/Shor is the god of men, if they were specifically targeting the human gods, they'd be going after Shor worship. Their focus on Talos is indicative of their bigger picture. Edited February 17, 2014 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Second, you're applying a double stanard to your evaluation. Ulfric KNOWS he can hold Skyrim, whereas Tullius only CLAIMS that the Empire is preparing for war. On the contrary I don't doubt Tullius is telling the truth that the Empire is bolstering its defenses. They'd be fools not to. But the Empire has no intention of being the one to break the peace. Which goes back to the "they don't have the stomach for another war with the dominion argument." But like you said, that's another topic. Bottom line we agree Ulfric isn't racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeddBate Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Wow. Just, wow. What a great thread. So, you both believe that Ulfric isn't racist (given the cultural/political structure of Skyrim.) Okay, I'll go along with that. But he is a jerk at truce conferences. (As anyone who's played "Season Unending" will attest to.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Wow. Just, wow. What a great thread. So, you both believe that Ulfric isn't racist (given the cultural/political structure of Skyrim.) Okay, I'll go along with that. But he is a jerk at truce conferences. (As anyone who's played "Season Unending" will attest to.) Well, try to look at it from his perspective. The last time he saw Tullius, it was with a rag in his mouth and his comrades were being executed. If that wasn't enough, Thalmor Emissary Elenwen also accompanied Tullius and she personally tortured Ulfric . You'd have to have ice flowing in your veins to be able to simply ignore that kind of history and attend to the business at hand in a gracious manner. Edited February 17, 2014 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeddBate Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Well, try to look at it from his perspective. The last time he saw Tullius, it was with a rag in his mouth and his comrades were being executed. If that wasn't enough, Thalmor Emissary Elenwen also accompanied Tullius and she personally tortured Ulfric . You'd have to have ice flowing in your veins to be able to simply ignore that kind of history and attend to the business at hand in a gracious manner. Point. Definitely a good point. Two of them actually. Much as I liked Hadvar, and much as I understand the Empire's position, Tullius, restrained and dignified though he may be at the conference, is still one the primary instigators of the whole mess because of his heavy-handed approach to the rebellion and Nords in general. "You bloody Nords and your 'Honour'" -pretty well sums it up. Guess that's why I favored the Stormcloaks even though I didn't join the civil war. It was partly an emotional choice based on what I wanted to RPG into the situation. Still a jerk though, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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