Bethesda.net Mods is revising its port rules, we would like your feedback.

[Cartogriffi]

Thankfully, no one is faking permission screenshots on Bethesda.net. The truth of the matter is far more mundane and, considering this is a moderation headache, doesn't involve anyone acting unreasonably.

 

A mod author approves a port, but forgets their mod perms are set to "You are not allowed to upload this file to other sites under any circumstances."

 

There are some variations on this theme, but they mostly boil down to the same thing. And since both staff and users at Bethesda.net tend to be hyper-vigilant about mod theft, such a mod tends to get reported down as suspicious, and then I get to chase down the original author to confirm permissions.

 

Problems like this are becoming increasingly common.

 

I suppose there is an alternative solution - do not question the validity of permission screenshots. But given that the platform has never shaken off its reputation as a haven for theft, relaxing our standards is a tough sell.

[Kynnkaid]

I see this is for MAs and I'm not a current mod author on this site but I am working on something that will be published in the near future so I'm not sure if that counts lol

 

If anything, what about a possible verification system when publishing mods with obtained permissions? Example.. On the bnet mod page have a "Verify Permission" link that takes you to your Nexus account. You then go to your message from the OMA and hit "Verify" which will take a screenshot that is linked to Nexus site instead of just adding a screenshot from your phone/pc photos? This would be something only Bethesda team could view but it adds a public "verified" tag to the mod. Just a random thought is all.

[WillOhTheWisp]

I agree with what others have stated, that the fairly low incidence of faked permissions doesn't merit the additional inconvenience of requiring mod authors to jump through additional hoops to grant permission. In addition to being inconvenient, public permissions are not foolproof and I can already anticipate several problematic scenarios arising. Many mod authors may not utilize or ever even check comments or they may have comments turned off or have them locked by themselves or by Nexus staff; the mod page may have hundreds if not thousands of comments and anyone verifying permissions would have to read through all of them to locate the needle in the haystack; the mod page may become hidden and the hidden page would prevent the permissions from being viewable.

 

I think the ideal scenario is a multi-pronged approach. The first step would be to request that Nexus add an additional permissions scenario that allows or disallows console ports. FO4 has this permission specification already. Most of the time I have found that mod authors only keep their "upload to other sites" permissions closed because they do not want their mods on Steam Workshop or any unsavory sites, not because they have anything against console modding. Many mod authors have no problem with their mods being hosted on Bethesda.net, they just haven't ported it themselves because they don't want the hassle of hosting it there themselves, either because they don't know how to port it or because they cannot troubleshoot for console-specific issues (such as editor markers, optimization to mitigate the 5GB limit, or to get around 3rd-party program dependencies). Many mod authors don't leave permissions open because they aren't aware of console modding or because they simply want to know who is hosting their mods and therefore ask to be contacted first before allowing a port. I think a private message requesting permission to port is appropriate in that scenario.

 

The second step would be to update Bethesda.net itself to add required fields for both Author and Permissions. The current state of the site makes it very easy to forget or altogether avoid giving attribution and to side-step the question of permissions entirely. The uploader should need to attest that they are either: 1) The creator of the mod, or 2) Porting the mod on another's behalf. If they attest to the later, they should need to enter the original mod authors name and then specify the state of the permissions by attesting either: 1) Open permissions, or 2) Permissions have been obtained. These attestations should be displayed on the mod page, so that the mod users knows the port is not the uploader's work and to make permissions more easily verifiable.

 

The third step would be to create a more robust reporting system on Bethesda.net. The current system relies entirely on community self regulation and enables abuse via mob rule. Mods are only removed after reaching a report threshold and then they are automatically removed without review. This makes it easy for anyone to go around mass reporting to force a mod's removal, regardless of the report's legitimacy. Although I think manual review of reports is ideal, I can understand if this is not feasible. However, I think that if the permissions attestations are added, that different thresholds can be set depending on which attestation is made. So a mod that is attested to be open permission (and is easily verifiable) may have a higher threshold than a mod with a "permissions obtained" attestation. Additionally, I think that there should be an option to request manual review of a mod's permissions rather than the basic reporting that leaves you just hoping that enough people report and the threshold is reached. A manual review request could still have a threshold, but just a much lower one.

[Cartogriffi]

I see this is for MAs and I'm not a current mod author on this site but I am working on something that will be published in the near future so I'm not sure if that counts lol

 

If anything, what about a possible verification system when publishing mods with obtained permissions? Example.. On the bnet mod page have a "Verify Permission" link that takes you to your Nexus account. You then go to your message from the OMA and hit "Verify" which will take a screenshot that is linked to Nexus site instead of just adding a screenshot from your phone/pc photos? This would be something only Bethesda team could view but it adds a public "verified" tag to the mod. Just a random thought is all.

 

We looked into a few tool solutions, but the development needs for each was very high, and they all had some glaring flaws. Additionally, any such solution would need to work for multiple mod hosts, not just Nexus.

 

 

I agree with what others have stated, that the fairly low incidence of faked permissions doesn't merit the additional inconvenience of requiring mod authors to jump through additional hoops to grant permission. In addition to being inconvenient, public permissions are not foolproof and I can already anticipate several problematic scenarios arising. Many mod authors may not utilize or ever even check comments or they may have comments turned off or have them locked by themselves or by Nexus staff; the mod page may have hundreds if not thousands of comments and anyone verifying permissions would have to read through all of them to locate the needle in the haystack; the mod page may become hidden and the hidden page would prevent the permissions from being viewable.

 

There are problems with the proposed solution. The fact that man mod authors do not use/like mod comments is certainly a strike against it.

 

There are also problems with our current setup. For one, it's contributed to an appearance that theft is rampant even though this it no longer is. For that matter, we also don't have an issue with brigading, although you certainly aren't the first to believe it's a problem. But let's tackle the appearance of theft before we tackle the appearance of brigading. I'm actually pretty sure fixing the first will do a lot to resole the second.

 

Back on topic, while neither the current solution nor the proposed solution are great, part of the reason for this discussion is to see if one can be improved - or if a third, superior option arises.

[veracruze]

It's already really hard to get in touch with some mod authors that I sometimes find myself reaching out a couple of times even thru discord to get noticed. One time I had to find their unlinked profile to another site just to get in touch. Since this is an almost 11 years old game, some people that mod have moved on, but have unchanged permissions on their mod page. Maybe for lack of care or just forgot about changing them while moving on in most of my cases. I hate to intrude, but I like modding more that it overweights the situation for me.

tl,dr: I understand the necessity, but please keep in mind that it's already pretty hard to get in touch with some modders with "ask for permissions" added on their mods.

[Zanderat]

It's a complex problem. To me, don't worry about faked screenshots or HTML hacks, etc.. Do people really go to that much trouble to upload a mod very often? I do think that, at the very least, BGS admins should default to the published permissions, if there is ever any doubt about a mod's portability.

[Elianora]

I think the suggested proposal is good. Once the upload to Bethnet is approved, add a note about that on the Nexus page of said mod. On Nexus you can use the "additional permission details" box.

Don't want to bother updating your mod page with the info that you gave X the permission to upload you mod to consoles? > Don't give the permission, problem solved.

Worried that the author gave you permission to upload to Bethenet but the mod page where the permission is stated might have downtime or the mod will get removed from Nexus? > Take an internet archive of it.

[Euphan]

1.before publishing X mod, give the users the option to check the box "I am allowed to port X mod" and upload prove of approval, e.g. screenshot

2. X mod get published, but the status will be pending for approval.
3. have actual human to go over the prove of approval, if deny, hide or remove the X mod.

[Elianora]

1.before publishing X mod, give the users the option to check the box "I am allowed to port X mod" and upload prove of approval, e.g. screenshot

2. X mod get published, but the status will be pending for approval.

3. have actual human to go over the prove of approval, if deny, hide or remove the X mod.

 

 

They were trying to relieve moderation workload, not add more of it.

[Euphan]

 

1.before publishing X mod, give the users the option to check the box "I am allowed to port X mod" and upload prove of approval, e.g. screenshot

2. X mod get published, but the status will be pending for approval.

3. have actual human to go over the prove of approval, if deny, hide or remove the X mod.

 

 

They were trying to relieve moderation workload, not add more of it.

 

oops...i guess just maybe consider number one then.

that way, at least you are giving user the option to prove and store its legality on bnet and lessen the need of bnet moderation team to chase around different parties for verification...I think? :sad: